Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > Porsche 914 & 914-6 Technical Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 26
six or big-4

I'm sure this has already been debated to death...

Anyway, I just purchased my '72 2.0 and am having a blast so far. It is already pretty much set up for auto-x and driving events: 5-lug, 911 brakes front and rear, weltmeister sways f/r, mildly built 2.0 w/ dual webers, etc. The car handles awesome and is quick... however, I am already thirsting for more power. I am interested in hearing both sides of the argument re: cost, reliability, smiles per dollar, drivability, etc.

I like the simplicity of buying one of Raby's 2270's and being able to bolt it in and go, but you are looking at around $5500 for appx 160hp. Is a guy better off in the long run to spend the extra $$ for the six? What is the "real" cost of doing a six conversion... Any experience/advice/discussion on the subject would be appreciated.

Thanks
BH
Old 12-22-2002, 08:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Vancouver,Wa.
Posts: 4,457
You're right, this has come up, once or twice.

From my perspective, 160 hp isn't enuff.
About 10lbs to each hp is about right, at least for now
When I learn to deal with that doing AX, who knows?....but I hope to find out.

A 160 hp T-4, 914 would be in the same SCCA class as mine, F Prepared, along with full on race cars. SCCA don't much like 914s or Porsches in general, me thinks. I think PCA puts you in GTU....under 2.5L, but it would still be fun and a good driver can make up the difference.

Ask Jake how he does in AX.
__________________
JPIII
Early Boxster
Old 12-22-2002, 09:44 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
korijo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Snoqualmie, WA
Posts: 601
I would love to see a bug ax. Anyone got any photos?
__________________
Dave
Korijo

73 Olympic Blue 914 1.7L (2L /4 back in progress)
69 Highlander Bug 1776
93 GL EV 2.8L The Van

914club.com Member #914
Old 12-22-2002, 11:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Jim Smolka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hickory NC USA
Posts: 2,491
IMHO, go for the 6. Though the cost may be a higher, the reliability and functionality (dry sump, better design motor, more HP, etc) makes the 6 a better choice. And, you can listen to HP music in flat six
__________________
'75 914-6 3.2 (Track Car)
'81 SC 3.6 (Beast)
'993 Cab (Almost Done Restoring)
Old 12-23-2002, 04:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
See the post below "Totally awesome" below thats what a 160 BHP TIV can do in a 914. you can do a -6 conversion, and all the hassles that come along make it a pain to do...The MassIVe Type IV is a bolt in..
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com
Old 12-23-2002, 06:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
scg scg is offline
Registered User
 
scg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: SW PDX
Posts: 507
Hmmm. Decisions, decisions!. If you think that you'll be satisfied with a big four, go for it. The owner in that post that Jake mentions is a *very* happy camper.

That said, if you get the four and decide you want even more power ("Too much of a good thing is never enough!" & "I need a car that'll go 200mph in order to drive to work."), you're going to have to start over (I think). With a six, the power options are pretty much endless.

Currently I'm "very satisfied" with my six (Me, any time I press the on/off switch...er...right pedal: "YeeeHaawwww!"), but I'm starting to want to tinker with it for more power ... hmm lesse here... RS spec... yeah... time and $$$... now to run *that* past the wife

I like the sound of an angry six, too.
__________________
Scott
74 914-6 2.7
Old 12-23-2002, 07:23 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Posts: 321
J.P. whats the deal with the SCCA not liking 914s? I always seem to see one or two at their events. But I'm not a member so I don't know the inside scoop.

Was a member a while back when I had my Fiero, but I didn't care for how they classed my car with lighter/newer Miatas and MR2s.
Old 12-23-2002, 07:30 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Never left, but not right
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Long Beach CA
Posts: 30,961
Many people will claim that you will need $5000 in parts PLUS the six to do the conversion. I don't know, I have the six but not the parts. Need: Flywheel and clutch ass'y, sheet metal, exhaust, fuel pump, motor mount, oil tank and plumbing, oil cooler and plumbing and a little wiring. Did I miss anything? I think you can do it for significantly less with used parts, it'll have to be or I will never do it. See Pelican tech article on 914 conversion.
Old 12-23-2002, 07:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
I have talked to customers who have done the conversion and say that 8K is the bare minimum, most spend 10 if they can't do the work themselves...

a 160HP TIV engine will run about 6500.00 plus just a few small items llike an oil cooer and electric fuel pump.
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com
Old 12-23-2002, 08:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Vancouver,Wa.
Posts: 4,457
Quote:
Originally posted by odie
J.P. whats the deal with the SCCA not liking 914s? I always seem to see one or two at their events. But I'm not a member so I don't know the inside scoop.

Was a member a while back when I had my Fiero, but I didn't care for how they classed my car with lighter/newer Miatas and MR2s.
I don't have any "inside scoop", but you noticed the same thing that I did. Their classifications are biased...towards some cars, against others....Porsches, particularily against 914.

The way I read the book, carbs on a t-4, 914 drops you right into F Prepared.....no Street Prepared, for the teener. You're in there with Mr. Fordahl's 914...the only Porsche to win any class at the finals (IIRC).
Stock 914 runs in C Stock with the Miatas.
The Boxster S was in SS with the Z06s....now (I think it's in A Stock with the normal C-5).
An early 911 with a STOCK 3.2L motor goes into ASP.There was a window there, but the 06s are now in there.

Sure, I still go play.
Last season convinced me that just to be competive in the local FP, I need to make some major changes.
I'm 2-4 seconds off a "real" FP car.....half of that is driver, I'm sure, still, 2 seconds is bunch in AX. A 914 can go to 2.8L, 2100 lbs minimum weight, no twin plugs....cross that line and, near as I can tell, you don't just move into a higher Prepared class...you go
right into a modified class. 3.0 & 3.2L, 914s are screwed.

As I see it, it's the same in road racing. How many Porsches won their class or even finished in the top 5 at the runoffs?
One.
Second in GT-2...a class won by a Toyoda Celica......now there's a car with a racing heritage Jim Blakewell tried his best, but the deck is stacked against him.
__________________
JPIII
Early Boxster
Old 12-23-2002, 08:42 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Vancouver,Wa.
Posts: 4,457
The cost of my original conversion to a 2.4L T was under 6400 bucks...all new parts cept the motor......this does not include non engine related components....brakes, suspension, etc.
Sold the complete 2.0L, FI to exchangers,....but with a low hole, for 900. Turns out that both heads were cracked.. humm....less than 5500 including that....go figure.

The latest iteration (DIY) gave another 60-80 hp and cost around 3500...sold the 2.4L in peices for 1100 and that is included in the total....plus 1K for an exernal oil cooler....that's called "growth", Jake.

All the new motor's O rings seem to be intact.....of course, *I'M* not a professional engine builder, but I do spin it to 7300 rpm on a regular basis in the AX wars.

This thread seems to be running it's normal course

BTW, I have a parts list from the original swap with vendors and prices, if ayone is interested....it's bout 4 years old, tho.
__________________
JPIII
Early Boxster

Last edited by J P Stein; 12-23-2002 at 09:22 AM..
Old 12-23-2002, 09:17 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Andyrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Modesto, California
Posts: 569
Garage
Com on guys for the same money you could have a 400 hp sb chevy.. 6/1 weight to hp.. not bad
Old 12-23-2002, 09:21 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
Prices go up and down, alot of it has to do with finding the correct engine for the right price...

Now, what happens when something breaks?? I build 911 engines as well, but not on a wide spectrum, I have never touched one for less than 5K for a stock rebuild and that customer had alot of his own parts.......

Simplicity, thats why I like a TIV.


Quite hnestly if I were going to do a conversion on my 73 I would do a chevy conversion before I would consider a -6, and thats coming from a guy that has owned one car with a radiator in his life.....atleast with the chevy you can buy the parts from summit and still get 350HP and bolt it together in one night....totally painless.
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com

Last edited by Jake Raby; 12-23-2002 at 09:24 AM..
Old 12-23-2002, 09:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
sweater914's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 290
i like the 4 cly route, sure the 6's offer more power and torque, but i'd like to add to the embrassement of any V-8 driver, when you tell he/she just got beat by a little ole 4 cly, what you won't tell the other driver is that it displaces 2.5L with laptop programable fuel injection

ah, one day, one day
Old 12-23-2002, 09:27 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Puny Bird
 
Mark Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Port Hope (near Toronto) On, Canada
Posts: 4,079
I am totally in the same boat, hipo the 4, or spend the coin and do a six.
Right now I am just going to do a stock 2L d-jet, at least it's better than my stock 1.8. Then I can sell the d-jet if I do go for a six.

I would like to know the final price on sacook's engine, as Jake's site lists this engine at $5500+.
What is the plus, clutch, better internals? 150hp sounds nice, but how will it hold up over time?
If I stuff a stock 2.7 six in my teen, I would have about the same power, with an almost stock engine.

One thing I may try, is is a bit of a hand grenade engine. I have a bunch of old hipo T4 stuff, none of of it I would sell, as I don't totally trust it. But for about 1k I could put it together, and then just beat the crap out of it. I might do it, but for now I will just do the d-jet.

Since I'm new to 914's (I've always had aircooled bugs, buses, hipo T1 engines, etc.) I think I will take my time before I dive into a good (and expensive) hipo engine.

Last edited by Mark Henry; 12-23-2002 at 10:03 AM..
Old 12-23-2002, 09:57 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
I have a customer with a 2270 engine in a beetle that dynoped at 159BHP at the rear wheels 3 years ago, he has 65K on it and has not touched it, he drives 110 miles a day to work one way.....and lives in Arizona.

Just because the engine is bigger it means noting, my revisions and modifications increase both the engines power and reliability at the same time. In my opinion a 2270 engine that comes out of my shop uis better designed than a 2.0 from the factory......and thats no joke, as they run as cool or cooler and make 80% more power atleast.
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com
Old 12-23-2002, 10:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
JWest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,330
Quote:
and make 80% more power atleast
The 2270 makes at least 170 hp in reliable, streetable form? Seems a little high compared to your other comments and the data on your website.

The four vs. six is a difficult debate in the 150 hp range. The engines are quite different, economics do not tell the whole story. Jake likes the four despite having worked on sixes, while others have gone from big fours to sixes after one ride in a six powered car. It is really an emotional decision based on what you really want and what will make you most happy.

Unless of course you really need more than 200 hp that lasts. Then you need a six or a conversion of some sort.
__________________
James

JWest Engineering
Old 12-23-2002, 11:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
sammyg2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 49,966
Hmmmm, I'm not getting into which is a better, but I can tell you what I like more based on experience:

I started with a type 4, wanted more HP, put a turbo on it. Nearly doubled the HP. it was cool, but not perfect. Something missing, not quite right.

I sold it and bought a project 914 with a 350 chebbie. Got it running near perfect, raced it, way fast. Still, It didn't seem to "ring my bell". The car was a rocket, handled great, but there was something missing.

I bought a 911 SC which forced the sale of the V8 car. I imediately fell head over heels in love with the 3 liter six. I found what I was looking for.

Let's see, a six costs about the same to build as Jake's 2270 (using his numbers, not mine) but it will last well over 200,000 miles.

It makes good horsepower, is extremely smooth, and sounds incredible.
It will increase the value of the 914 considerably. While only a fool thinks he can get all his money back out of a car, the six conversion will get you more than a big 4 when it's time to sell.

It costs more to install.

The next 914 I buy will either have a six in it or I will put one in myself.

I'm not saying that everyone should have a six. I'm saying that before someone plops down a great big chunk of change for a big 4, drive a six. Then decide for yourself.
Old 12-23-2002, 11:20 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
derek_sf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 518
seems to me there is a huge price difference between the two. with a 2270 you are getting a NEW plug n play motor that can be installed yourself. with the -6 you are getting a used motor for the same price, but need ~$3k in extra/install parts, and then the labor to set it all up. it looks as though the -6 done right will cost 2x what a 2270 done right will cost. you can also use the 2270 in a car which shouldn't be cut up and welded on. from what I have seen, you will lose far more money on the -6 at resale. you could also easily take the 2270 with you and drop a stocker back in if you decide to sell. I of course would rather have a 3.2L, but it all depends on what you want to spend, what you will use it for, what car it is going into, how long you will keep it, etc, etc.
Old 12-23-2002, 11:33 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Aircooled Heaven
Posts: 1,054
I'm using my 73 for a test bed for a new 914 2270 engine configuration.....this is a combo I have not tried in the past, totally new, and maybe even a few bucks cheaper than the normal 2270 and maybe with more power and totally capable of being cooled with the stock system.

Some people like coke, some people like Pepsi, some people like a -6 and some people like a MassIVe Type IV, its all the same.

Never mind my opinions on a -4Vs. a -6 as they are as biased as you will find, I like what has worked for me time and time again.
__________________
Jake Raby
Owner, Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com
www.massivetype4.com
Old 12-23-2002, 11:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:59 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.