Timing is too advanced. Help!
 

I just installed a locally found 2.0L into my car. I believe it was running carbs before, so I sourced all the d-jetronic goodies (intake runners, airbox, throttle body, ECU, distributor, injectors, etc) all together from eBay. The distributor came with a Pertronix Ignitor installed.

The car starts, but when setting the timing I cannot turn the distributor far enough clockwise to line up the red notch for 27 BTDC. I see the red paint on the fan rotate when I rotate the dizzy, but it looks like maybe 2 fan blades off from reaching the V shaped notch. So maybe 15 degrees too advanced. The vacuum advance can on the dizzy hits the fan housing when I turn it all the way clockwise. I'm using an older, basic craftsman timing light. Nothing fancy. I'm holding the RPMs at 3500 while timing.

I've confirmed:
The "0" for TDC
The red notch for 27 BTDC
#1 Spark plug in correct order on the distributor cap
Vacuum advance hoses are removed and plugged

1.) Would the Pertronix ignitor in some way throw off my timing?
2.) Would the distributor drive gear inside the engine off one tooth throw the timing off 15 degrees? I haven't touched it and I was told the engine was running when pulled.
3.) Is there anything else I can check?

Where in NoVA are you?

1. I don't think Pertronix would be the issue.

2. I'm not sure it's possible to put the dizzy gear off like that. I know the dizzy itself only goes in one way based on the notch gear.

You should be able to verify TDC in a couple of ways. First, it's possible the red mark may actually be your TDC. I think they have been marked in different ways by different owners over the years. Do a search for a picture of the fan to see where TDC is in relation to the vanes on the fan. I've also heard some people say thay have seen fans installed incorrectly, so they use the flywheel as their guide.

Here's a way to verify TDC: Put one of those fan marks at the notch you think is TDC. Make sure the distributor rotor is pointed roughly at #1. Now, check the flywheel notch/mark at the back of the engine, on top bellhousing - (probably have to move the engine seal) - there's a small hole there. where you can see the flywheel If you can see/feel the flywheel TDC mark through that notch, you are at TDC for #1. If not, try lining up the other mark on your fan and see if you can see/feel the flywheel mark.

FWIW, I thought I experienced the same issue on my 1.7L a couple of years ago. I can't remember if I had the TDC marks confused or if I was actually able to turn the dizzy clockwise enough to get it right. Either way, it wasn't the fan or dizzy. It was me.

There

The fan cannot be installed incorrectly, it is keyed to the hub and the hub is keyed to the crankshaft. Even if the locating dowel is gone, it would fit on the correct orientation, or 120 degrees one way or the other from correct. Not 15 degrees.

The fans can be marked oddly, though. Definitely double check against the edge of the flywheel!

The exact position of the pickup on the Pertronix can affect the timing. I don't know how much room there is inside the distributor to move the pickup around, but it may be worth a try.

The distributor should only be able to go in one way, but we have seen instances where they have actually gone in 180 degrees out. This is uncommon, though.

The drive shaft for the distributor can be removed, rotated, and then re-installed. To do so, you would remove the distributor and the spring that sits in the top of the drive shaft. Then using a puller, pull up and twist the shaft so that it comes out. Rotate in the direction desired, then re-install while twisting the other direction from the one that allowed you to pull the shaft out.

WARNING: There is a washer on the bottom of the drive shaft. It will likely stay sitting in the bore when you pull the shaft out. If it does not, there is a chance it will fall, and if it does, there is a chance that it could fall into the case! You do not want this to happen...

--DD

Ok, last night I doubled checked a few things
1.) Fan at “0”

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...psontthao0.jpg

2.) Rotor lined up with notch on distributor/cylinder. Notch is pointing to the front left of the car which I have read is correct. Also, the Pertronix appears to be installed correctly.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...pschdgjygj.jpg

3.) Notch on the flywheel is lined at top of transmission

4.) Cylinder #1 at top of stroke checked via screwdriver into spark plug hole


Here is what the fan looks like. This is the broken, original one that came with the motor. I swapped it out with my 1.7 fan that had the same notches.
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps8zpjdpkl.jpg
As Dave pointed out, the fan cannot be installed incorrectly because of the key on the hub.
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...psoieoyqvr.jpg


Since the rotor is lined up with the notch on the distributor body and facing the front left of the car, would all of this indicate that the problem is the distributor itself not functioning properly, not the distributor drive shaft?

My next step, as Dave suggested, is to play with the position of the Pertronix. Would it be dump to just change the position of the spark plug wires on the cap or just remove the canister on the dizzy?

beatnavy, I'm in Ashburn, VA

Thanks for the input.

Alright, another local guy! I'm in Sterling (Cascades) just down the road from you. I'll send you a PM with my contact info just in case that may be useful with this or other efforts.

I've actually ever worked with Petronix (it's on my "to-do list" to buy and install) so I can't guess how that may be the issue. I see you have a rev limiter rotor. Does that work with a Pertonix?

Don't change the wires positions on the dizzy! The vacuum canister is what's hitting the cooling flap vane, right? I remember that's what was causing me issues before, and now, again, I can't remember what I did to resolve. You need the vacuum canister. That's your advance mechanism and the car won't run well at various speeds without it.

You're using a regular timing light, correct? And connected to plug 1, and unplugging both hoses at vacuum canister (advance/retard) and plugging them up....?

Oh, cool. That would be great to have another set of eyes on it if I can't figure it out soon.

The vacuum canister is hitting the aluminum fan housing.

Since the motor and distributor is from a 74, the canister is only for retard, which only functions at idle. The advance feature was disabled after 73, but they left both outlets on the canister and got rid of the second outlet on the throttle. The advance hose just runs into the intake after the throttle body.

Yup, just an older Craftsman timing light attached to the #1 spark plug wire. Both hoses disconnected and plugged.

Ok, so you just have the mechanical advance. I suppose you could remove the vacuum canister, but I'm not 100% sure what would happen to your idle or acceleration immediately after idle before mechanical advance kicks in. I still feel something else must be going on though.

Sorry, I meant to say my vacuum canister was hitting the cooling flap linkage bar.

Well I have good news and I have bad news :) :(

Good news:
I believe I may have solved my timing issue. Following Dave's advise, I picked up a feeler tool at Sears and realized that the gap of the Pertronix ignitor was out of spec. After closing the gap, I retested and found the timing was only one fan blade off from 27 BTDC when the distributor was twisted all the way clockwise. Thanks Dave!!

The bad news:
When I went to close the gap on the Pertronix even further to reach 27* BTDC, I must have leaned on the coil, causing the the spade connector on the positive side of the coil to touch the engine tin and short the coil. I went to go start it and the fuel pump didn't prime. I went to investigate with the key in the "on" position and the black/purple wire on the negative side of the coil started to smoke and melt. Now the fuel pump doesn't really prime with the occasional half hearted, split second prime. I can hear some relays clicking, and the car still cranks, but doesn't run. It appears I fried something ignition or fuel pump related.

Before I find a friend to help me start multi metering everything, does anyone know all what I ruined? Fuel pump, coil, Pertronix ignitior, relay, the wiring goes to all those things, etc?

Only burned up wiring I can see:
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...s8wqawsqn.jpeg

The culprit of my short:
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...srjjnucmf.jpeg

Thanks you.

I did something similar once and the damage wasn't too bad. Check the relays and fuses on the relay board and go from there.

Thanks, fuses look fine. Need to check the relays.

Anyone know exactly what would get deep fried?

Last night I discovered, with the ignition on, there is no power going to fuse #9 which sends power to the main power relay. I'm assuming I melted the ignition switch.

I suppose that's possible. Do you have a replacement? The first time it takes an hour or so, but it's pretty straightforward overall. I have a spare if you need one quick.

Isn't fuse #9 the fresh air blower and horn? Or am I looking at the wrong diagram? Is your horn working....?

Fuse 9 should be getting fed by pin #15 on the ignition switch. Some of the other things on that circuit take their power from the "upstream" side of the fuse, and so are not protected by it. (E.g., the coil, the 74 cars' Dreaded Seatbelt Interlock Relay.)

--DD

If you're still physically limited in rotating the distributor you can just pull the distributor off and then pull out the drive and rotate it however many teeth you need.

Success!

-After some multi-metering I discovered that I deep fried that ignition switch. Easy fix, getting power again.
-Car still won't start, but I figured the Pertroni was fried as well. Same day'd one from Amazon (Only $10 for shipping!). Car starts!
-Alternator light is now on, so it looks like that is fried as well. New one in the mail.
-Without letting the car warm up very much because of my dead alternator, it looks my timing is correct now.

Thanks Dave and beatnavy!! :cool: