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Cylinder walls-Scoring

i have some scoring in the number three and four cylinder walls in my 84' engine block. I can only catch my finger nail on one of the lines in the number four cylinder wall. I am attaching some photos. Should I just take my chances or buy a different block? Will my 84' 944 harness work with an 87' engine? I will use an 85.5 Bosch DME or later.

Is honing something I can do myself?
Old 04-13-2019, 10:52 PM
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Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
 
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I have been doing my own hobby wrenching for 40+ years and am one of the last generations of guys whose Dad did things common to his generation like rebuilding engines in the shade of trees, pouring bearings in the block and then using a rope towing the vehicle to get the engine moving and wear it a bit before starting. Dad became a top flight engineer, then fighter pilot and retired as an international airline captain. So much of what I learned came from that viewpoint.

Your grooves are fine. Just bolt it together (don't take the pistons out) and run it. Will one cylinder possibly burn slightly more oil and that plug be a slightly different color? (check the ones you took out). Possibly, but possibly not. But you'll not even notice any issues unless they're a lot deeper than you're telling. Even deeply grooved cylinders can be run and are run every day - including on demanding race tracks. I have a background as a former product developer, and also former worldwide powertrain planner for the largest automaker on the planet and I'll tell you that people are often picker than they need to be. Without feeling it myself I cannot be certain, but I believe those cylinders are fine.

Honing is easy to do at home these days with the new ball hones that have replaced the tricky 3 stone tool. However your block is Alusil I believe and that cannot be honed by an amateur. It requires a truly talented shop.

So, all things considered, I'd run it and expect no issues. I assume you are NOT taking the pistons out but this was a head removal to put down a new gasket for a replacement engine you are fitting. If you are, then check back in for more input.
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84 944, 87 Vanagon, 88 Mitsubishi Van Wagon, 88 Supra Targa, 1990 Audi 90 20V Quattro sedan, 1992 Lexus LS400, 1993 LandCruiser, 1997 LandCruiser, 2017 Subaru Outback.
Old 04-14-2019, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdahoDoug View Post
I have been doing my own hobby wrenching for 40+ years and am one of the last generations of guys whose Dad did things common to his generation like rebuilding engines in the shade of trees, pouring bearings in the block and then using a rope towing the vehicle to get the engine moving and wear it a bit before starting. Dad became a top flight engineer, then fighter pilot and retired as an international airline captain. So much of what I learned came from that viewpoint.

Your grooves are fine. Just bolt it together (don't take the pistons out) and run it. Will one cylinder possibly burn slightly more oil and that plug be a slightly different color? (check the ones you took out). Possibly, but possibly not. But you'll not even notice any issues unless they're a lot deeper than you're telling. Even deeply grooved cylinders can be run and are run every day - including on demanding race tracks. I have a background as a former product developer, and also former worldwide powertrain planner for the largest automaker on the planet and I'll tell you that people are often picker than they need to be. Without feeling it myself I cannot be certain, but I believe those cylinders are fine.

Honing is easy to do at home these days with the new ball hones that have replaced the tricky 3 stone tool. However your block is Alusil I believe and that cannot be honed by an amateur. It requires a truly talented shop.

So, all things considered, I'd run it and expect no issues. I assume you are NOT taking the pistons out but this was a head removal to put down a new gasket for a replacement engine you are fitting. If you are, then check back in for more input.
Thank you for your time! Great background and experience you have! My plan was to replace the head gasket, clutch, seals, rollers, belts, etc. I have the clutch kit, head gasket, cam tower gasket. I have already replaced the seal at the crankshaft.

I really want to add some horsepower to the engine, so I had contemplated changing the pistons for the Euro Spec pistons, but I have not located any Euro Spec pistons. I know it gets expensive trying to add HP to the 944 engine, but I think some small changes, such as the Rogue Tuning MAF will help, along with maybe a Paeco cam.

The welder that removed the broken bolt for me, felt the scores inside the cylinder walls and like me could only catch his fingernail on one of the lines in the number four cylinder wall. The number one and two cylinder walls don't have any scoring that I can see.

The engine ran fine before I started the work. I just wanted to replace the clutch and everything that might need attention. I have been a fan of 944's since high school. My stepdad bought himself a new 83' 944 after he graduated from Georgia Tech. Guards red. I drove that car every chance I got.

I have two daughters and I want to kinda pass the tradition on to them. Teach them to drive a manual transmission car. I learned to drive stick on the 83' 944 and so glad that I learned.
Old 04-14-2019, 11:03 AM
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Leave it alone and put it all back together, as both George and Doug have said.

You will never notice it.
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kdjones2000 View Post
Leave it alone and put it all back together, as both George and Doug have said.

You will never notice it.
Good deal! Thank you for the reassurance! I tend to sweat the small things. I know you, Doug and George have more knowledge than me, so I am extremely grateful to you all for sharing your time and knowledge with me!
Old 04-14-2019, 12:23 PM
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Well, sounds like you are on the right track by passing on a tradition. I dropped my antique Quattro off a couple months ago to have it aligned at a big shop. The first two porters who came to get it walked away and the third walked over to me explaining that they didn't have anyone who could drive a stick to move it! So I did it. I joked with the guys at the counter with other customers about my cars all having a "Millenial security system" young car thieves can't overcome.

On pistons, that means new rings and new rings means the cylinder walls have to be honed. Someone recently posted that's about a $2000 hone these days. So if I were you, I'd just check over the engine and bolt it up again as you planned without go-fast stuff. I assume you've done the timing belt/balance shaft belt? That's a show stopper if it breaks as you likely know.

On the other stuff, I assume the engine's out and the clutch housing has been removed, eh? If not, if the original engine is still in the frame and the clutch job is still in front of you in total, do this. Get under there and get some penetrating oil on the pin that holds the clutch fork, or whatever bit is that prevents the clutch housing from coming off. Remove the set screw and shoot penetrating oil in that hole. NOT WD40, get a true penetrating oil like Kroil or PB Blaster. If that thing is stuck, it will stop you in your tracks for a while. I did the clutch like you are last year so feel free to ask questions when youi're on it.

My 944 is Guard's Red and I also taught my daughter how to drive a stick with it. So some commonality and also appreciation for tradition!!

Doug
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdahoDoug View Post
Well, sounds like you are on the right track by passing on a tradition. I dropped my antique Quattro off a couple months ago to have it aligned at a big shop. The first two porters who came to get it walked away and the third walked over to me explaining that they didn't have anyone who could drive a stick to move it! So I did it.
Twenty five years ago I had to drive my pick-up on the emissions treadmill because the "3 on a tree" had the people working there baffled. I see it hasn't gotten any better with time, the "Slushbox" has truly taken over
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Old 04-14-2019, 04:26 PM
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Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
 
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Yeah, I think things have continued to change when we weren't looking. In the last couple weeks, I've gotten blank looks and "I"ll get the manager" to the following items:

Plastiguage
Naval Jelly
A Micrometer (showed me dial calipers)

Considering the full spectrum of technology change my parents went through (party lines to smart phones, pencil and paper to digital documents, etc), I'm starting to feel how disorienting that must have been. Our generation has it a lot easier, methinks!
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Old 04-14-2019, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdahoDoug View Post
Well, sounds like you are on the right track by passing on a tradition. I dropped my antique Quattro off a couple months ago to have it aligned at a big shop. The first two porters who came to get it walked away and the third walked over to me explaining that they didn't have anyone who could drive a stick to move it! So I did it. I joked with the guys at the counter with other customers about my cars all having a "Millenial security system" young car thieves can't overcome.

On pistons, that means new rings and new rings means the cylinder walls have to be honed. Someone recently posted that's about a $2000 hone these days. So if I were you, I'd just check over the engine and bolt it up again as you planned without go-fast stuff. I assume you've done the timing belt/balance shaft belt? That's a show stopper if it breaks as you likely know.

On the other stuff, I assume the engine's out and the clutch housing has been removed, eh? If not, if the original engine is still in the frame and the clutch job is still in front of you in total, do this. Get under there and get some penetrating oil on the pin that holds the clutch fork, or whatever bit is that prevents the clutch housing from coming off. Remove the set screw and shoot penetrating oil in that hole. NOT WD40, get a true penetrating oil like Kroil or PB Blaster. If that thing is stuck, it will stop you in your tracks for a while. I did the clutch like you are last year so feel free to ask questions when youi're on it.

My 944 is Guard's Red and I also taught my daughter how to drive a stick with it. So some commonality and also appreciation for tradition!!

Doug

Good stuff! Wow that is funny that none of the porters knew how to drive a stick! Kinda sad on the other hand!

I haven't pulled the engine out yet. Going to work on it this week. I still need to remove the top two bolts from the torque tube to the bell housing. The space is tight.

Thank you for the information. I have some PB Blaster so I will put it to use.
Old 04-14-2019, 08:36 PM
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It is cool you taught your daughter how to drive a stick.
Old 04-14-2019, 08:41 PM
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One of my old timer friends has a daily driver '91 Corvette and took it in recently for annual inspection. The tester looked inside of the car and remarked "oh, you have one of the anti-theft devices installed in your car". My friend gave him a quizzical look and then the guy said, "a stick shift"!
Old 04-14-2019, 09:13 PM
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Ha - yeah I've heard a few versions of the stick shift as immobilizer, etc.

On the upper bell housing bolts. Yes, those were difficult. The right combination of 3/8" extensions and universal joint will do it. Use duct tape to connect the socket and the 1st extension and possibly the universal joint together as you'll have to be kind of rough moving it around up there shoving it through the insulation and tight spaces. It sucks when the socket falls off, etc. I borrowed a friend's higher quality snap on joint as mine felt like it was going to shatter. After doing it, I may have been wrong about that as once in position they popped loose more easiiy than I thought. A couple drops of oil in your universal joint will reduce binding and help it work at the angle. Don't forget to remove and label the two sensors on the top as they'll get bent otherwise.

Keep asking questions as there were some tricky things. Be sure to get some quality oil on that pin though!
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Old 04-14-2019, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdahoDoug View Post
Ha - yeah I've heard a few versions of the stick shift as immobilizer, etc.

On the upper bell housing bolts. Yes, those were difficult. The right combination of 3/8" extensions and universal joint will do it. Use duct tape to connect the socket and the 1st extension and possibly the universal joint together as you'll have to be kind of rough moving it around up there shoving it through the insulation and tight spaces. It sucks when the socket falls off, etc. I borrowed a friend's higher quality snap on joint as mine felt like it was going to shatter. After doing it, I may have been wrong about that as once in position they popped loose more easiiy than I thought. A couple drops of oil in your universal joint will reduce binding and help it work at the angle. Don't forget to remove and label the two sensors on the top as they'll get bent otherwise.

Keep asking questions as there were some tricky things. Be sure to get some quality oil on that pin though!
Thank you so much! I will have to make a trip to Harbor Freight. I need a universal joint
Old 04-15-2019, 07:25 AM
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While a universal joint can be very helpful, I have used 1/4" drive universal sockets to great advantage wrenching these cars. They work much better than a "joint" (hehe). In particular the 6,7,8,10,13mm sizes are very helpful. Get a quality set and be done with it. Just my opinion.
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Old 04-15-2019, 06:07 PM
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