No start/crank 924s '88

[mikseymono]

Hi all. Hope all is well.......

so, my 924s 1988 has developed a no start twice in the last 6 months. I drive it at least twice a week and do about 50 miles. Battery is in good condition and reads 12.35v if left overnight.

SO, situation is, I turn key, dash lights up as normal (no cel..LOL) then I go to start the car, I can hear fuel pump but there is no crank, no tach bounce. Nothing. I swapped out to another DME relay..I have quite the collection...and nothing again. I got a mate to push the car down the hill a bit and we jumped started it the old fashioned way and off I went. She is now at home with me up on ramps awaiting inspection. Is this leaning towards faulty reference/speed sensors...one does look a bit frayed. Are there any parts we can rule out at this stage?

Of course the car starts first time now....like the problem never existed....I tested the coil yesterday and all checks out. The starter does look rather original to the car though......

If I had a faulty starter motor would it engage, make a noise, at all?
If the sensors were faulty would this produce this no start?

I'll go through clarkes garage to troubleshoot this but thought I would ask here first.....to add insult to injury my passenger door handle broke on me as well...jeeeez.....but sorted that one out...just a bit stumped on this one.

Thanks for your thoughts,

M

[walfreyydo]

Starter motor is definitely a possibility. Especially if you turn the key and nothing happens. They key is "car does not crank". If it did crank, that would indicate the starter is working and the issue lies somewhere else (DME relay, fuel pump, ignition coil, etc etc). Clarks garage (shop manual section, but in this case, engine troubleshooting section) is a great resource which I would strongly encourage reading through, before coming to the forums. We will just tell you the same stuff thats already listed there as first steps. Notice the first section "Engine will not Rotate" and then look at what Clarks is suggesting as possible issues, and compare with my advice below...

Typically a bad starter motor (or solenoid) just does nothing, or sometimes makes a "click". Sometimes tapping the starter with a hammer can activate the starter (a trick thats gotten me out of having to call a tow truck a time or two).

You can remove the starter and bench test it by hooking it up to a battery and sending a +12 to the solenoid to activate the starter. I also think the typical Autozone/Oreilys can test starters for you as well. That said, starters near point of failure can be inconsistent, working sometimes and not working other times.

If the starter passes bench test, you should clean all the contacts on the battery, starter and wires running to the starter (they look pretty bad). Double check the ground and power wires to the starter arent damaged, insulation broken/corrosion/etc. Get a wire brush on all those connections/wires at the starter and get them somewhat shiny if you can.

You will also want to put a multimeter on the wire running to the starter solenoid and verify its getting +12 during cranking - you can do this with the starter removed and just test the signal coming from the wire. This is the signal coming from the ignition switch when you turn the key which activates the starter, so definitely something you want to check.


To recap:
-remove and bench test the starter (if it tests good, proceed to next steps)
-check wiring, corrosion at battery, connections at the starter cleaned (probably good to do anyways while you have everything disconnected)
-test ignition switch (or make sure that the starter is receiving +12 to the solenoid from the ignition)

[mikseymono]

Thanks walfreyydo for the most concise reply I have ever recieved....and I've asked a few questions in my 6 year ownership.

Lots of meaty stuff on the bone there for me to test out. I agree, the starter does look a bit cruddy. When you say tap the starter ...is it the bigger bit you tap or the smaller solenoid?

I'll attack tomorrow afternoon and revert back.

Cheers,

M

[walfreyydo]

Originally Posted by mikseymono

Thanks walfreyydo for the most concise reply I have ever recieved....and I've asked a few questions in my 6 year ownership.

Lots of meaty stuff on the bone there for me to test out. I agree, the starter does look a bit cruddy. When you say tap the starter ...is it the bigger bit you tap or the smaller solenoid?

I'll attack tomorrow afternoon and revert back.

Cheers,

M

Just tap on the main body of the starter while simultaneously turning the key. I probably wouldnt recommend this for actually testing the starter, more of a last ditch situation when you are stranded on the side of the road.

I would strongly suggest pulling the starter and bench testing it though, or taking it somewhere to be tested. While the starter is off, you can also work on cleaning all the connections and testing your solenoid (ignition switch) signal to eliminate those as a possibility. Looking at the condition its probably not a bad idea to replace it, regardless but I also understand new ones aren't exactly cheap.

[kdjones2000]

It could be your ignition switch is starting to go bad, it's a known weak point.

[mikseymono]

Thanks again.
How do you test the ignition switch....is this the one in the car?
How on earth do you turn the key and tap the starter motor at the same time?! Octopussy.??...Oh well...lots to read up on...got a free afternoon tomorrow, so that should be good.

[mikseymono]

Originally Posted by mikseymono

Thanks again.
How do you test the ignition switch....is this the one in the car?
How on earth do you turn the key and tap the starter motor at the same time?! Octopussy.??...Oh well...lots to read up on...got a free afternoon tomorrow, so that should be good.

Just seen the bible that is Clarks.......
stand down....
Even more to read up on!
M

[walfreyydo]

Theres more to an ignition switch test, but you can test the signal to the starter by putting a multimeter on the wire running to the solenoid and looking for +12V while cranking/turning the key to start the car.

This will confirm whether the "turn to start" portion of the ignition switch is working, but on, off, and acc on are other parts of the switch that you can test to confirm a fully functioning ignition switch.

[mikseymono]

Thanks again...thing is..it's intermittent....and think has only happened maybe 4 times in 6 years....but it always started up eventually after a 5 min/hood opening/wire wiggling/ so never really worried about it.

I guess if I crank it and it actually starts the solenoid is getting 12V right? I suppose your idea will work well if there is a no crank.
Just had a look on Clarks for the removal of the ignition switch...looks a bit fiddly!...at least the part is cheap....sub €20 here. I have this as the part number 111 905 865 L

[walfreyydo]

Thats fairly typical of when starters begin to go, they are somewhat hit and miss. Thats why tapping on them can just be enough to get the internal motor to rotate.

As a first step, you can go ahead and remove the starter, get that tested. Clean up all the wires and while doing so have a buddy hop in the car and crank the car over while you measure the voltage of the small power wire for +12V.

[grendiers]

I think your battery voltage is down. 13.4 is a more common voltage on a sitting battery. If I were me, I’d charge the battery first. Or jump with another vehicle.

[mikseymono]

OK...took the starter off today...gave it a good clean and bench tested it. Pictures before and after below.....All good and working well. Does this mean I can rule the starter out? I'll check the wire running to the solenoid tomorrow.......kinda leaning towards the ignition switch.....

[mikseymono]

and...in action on the bench... https://youtube.com/shorts/cr66kMuCIo8
All comments welcome.

Cheers,

M

[walfreyydo]

Starters can be weird, sometimes they bench test ok (when not under load), but when under load just do not have the power to turn the flywheel.

That said, lets assume for now the starter is ok. Time to test the solenoid wire. See if you are getting 12V while cranking - no need to reinstall the starter for this test, just put a multimeter on the wire.

[mikseymono]

Thanks again for keeping an eye on me.......got just done this test and have 12v on the solenoid wire whilst cranking. So thats all good.

So it seems all is good with the starter. The connections were really cruddy and needed alot of cleaning up. I think I'll have a go at taking the starter apart tomorrow and clean that up as well.

Hopefully this should do the trick.....I'll keep you posted.

M

[walfreyydo]

You could try re-installing the starter and seeing if just the act of cleaning up the connections has solved your problem. Dont forget about the battery cable connections and the ground point to the engine block (behind the fuel rail).

[mikseymono]

I'm going to refurb the starter...and then clean up all connections on the car and then go from there.

The battery holds 12.35v when at rest. It is 5 years old...so maybe the problem lies there.......

[mikseymono]

Refurbed the starter this am.. it was very cruddy to say the least and I would say original to the car i/e almost 40 years old. The solenoid was the most gummed up and had to give this part the most work.

Bushes were quite worn and now I know how it all pulls apart and how its goes back I could get new brushes and install them myself.

Mostly before and after shots...see if you can spot the difference!

This is the link I watched to help me out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzxDRyjyzV8&t=219s

So I have power from the ignition switch, starter motor and solenoid both test bench ok.

Haven't put it back on the car yet as work and life stuff coming up at me at the moment but in principal I can't see what else I can do. I have done my best I think.
Cheers for the help.

[walfreyydo]

Please report back if it starts or not, great work

[mikseymono]

well,I bench tested it and it all worked as it should. I had greased up the gears and used PTFE dry lubricant for the other bits. Does sound a bit quieter and smoother....but maybe that's just me wanting it to be so.

Just have to wait a bit to put it back on my car. With this and a new pair of door handles it's all go here
M