To LS or not to LS, advice wanted. (NA 944)

[Llamalord478]

I've been in the process of owning a 85.5 NA 944, and it's been tumultuous at best. I've worked on other cars but never a Porsche and nothing with fuel injection, and vastly underestimated how annoying electrical gremlins would be keeping my car in the garage for months while i replaced everything electrical that was having issues. It's got a mint interior and perfect body, which is why i chose it over a raggedy 951 or S2, and why at this point i'm considering an LS swap, LS1 or LS3, which may be cheaper in the long run than all the parts i'll have to buy to get it running or buy a parts car. I've been lead to renegade hybrids and texas performance concepts, but any info or guidance will be appreciated, links to youtube videos old threads ect.

My main questions:
which engine fits the easiest?
The stock transaxle- enough or will i have to find a 951 trans?
Other than drivetrain and wiring, anything big i'll have to change? (fuel pump, dash bits, ect)
Thanks!

[glenninsandiego]

One question that always rears its ugly head when it comes to this is where do you live and what are their smog laws. I live in California which makes this all the more harder.
Subscribed

[Matt at Pelican Parts]

I have a buddy with a swap. I believe he is using 951 transaxle but as far a sI know all the swap parts were fabbed up himself.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-engine-conversion-tech-forum/1123469-jamess-v8-944-budget-build.html

[Llamalord478]

I'm located in Indiana so thankful there's nothing I should have to worry about, as long as it isn't too loud.

[djnolan]

To get it all balanced and driveable as a stock 944 takes a lot of modifications. Also how do you plan to address the transaxle gearing ratio for a bigger motor, or will you leave it stock?

Do you have a thread about your electrical issues, this forum is incredibly helpful... Also to pep up a NA you could try the Lindsey (aka rouge) MAF kit.

[v2rocket_aka944]

i am a proponent of engine swaps - i have a GM V6 in my car...the added power and grunt makes it a lot more enjoyable to drive. i picked a 60 degree V6 over the LS to have more working room around the engine but that brought its own fitment challenges.

regarding the LS family, all the blocks are the same dimensions externally so no problem there.

FWIW an iron-block engine dressed and ready to run is about 200lbs heavier than a 944 NA engine in similar dress. the aluminum block version in this state is about 90lbs heavier than a 944 NA engine. i dont think the "weight balance" is as noticeable as you might think. though i was pleased when my iron-block V6 came in only 10lbs over the 944 engine..

[924RACR]

Quite some years ago I drove a 944 with an LS swap - LS2 IIRC. I was very pleasantly surprised how the balance etc of the car wasn't noticeably hurt. Had a good track chassis on it (dampers/springs etc) - test drive was on the street. Hydraboost conversion of course.

Main complaint was actually that the engine tune was pretty weak/conservative; I drive all the V8 transaxles (now midengine, of course), and it was pretty weak on the low end, where the big improvement from all those cubes should be... needed a going-over by someone who actually knew how to tune that controller and engine properly.

But yeah, the weight balance thing definitely not a problem, at least not with an aluminum LS...

[Monkey Wrench]

I wouldn't go so far as to say modifications are impractical. I would say that I'd personally never be interested in purchasing a used car that someone else had modified extensively. A racer buying a race prepared car, roll cage, fuel cell etc, is a different situation. I think its easy to go into making major mods and be interested in the initial process, then after, its also common that there are other issues, weight distribution, steering gear, engine mounts, alignment , balance. many get their cars to a driveable but less than satisfactory state as all sorts of issues are introduced. It's not impossible to work things out with back yard engineering, It is common that every single issue is not worked out properly.

point to point wiring is easy to fix, newer cars tended to have an ever increasing number of unnecessary wiring. If you wanted to simplify it you could probably pull out everything and put back only what's necessary and use a carb and old school style distributor, eliminating the ICU, engine sensors, all are unnecessary electronics.
Instead of FI. a lot of that wire is to run useless stuff like window winders, mirrors, sunroof, window or seat heaters, speed control, it has lots of hoses and electrical gizmos that are unnecessary to the proper operation of the vehicle. . the locking system. Many were added as "features" to increase sales but in older cars, increased complexity means more to go wrong and more to repair.

my vintage volvo has 3 fuses, essential wiring only. the only warning lights are for charging or oil pressure.the results of the simplicity are it is very easy to understand and troubleshoot and there is very little to fail. very little plastic, no electronics.

I personally much prefer that to modern electronically controlled over complexity.

power is nice if you do a lot of highway driving up steep hills, Otherwise, In reality, most any car can keep up with the bumper in front of you.

[Monkey Wrench]

I wouldn't go so far as to say modifications are impractical. I would say that I'd personally never be interested in purchasing a used car that someone else had modified extensively. A racer buying a race prepared car, roll cage, fuel cell etc, is a different situation. I think its easy to go into making major mods and be interested in the initial process, then after, its also common that there are other issues, weight distribution, steering gear, engine mounts, alignment , balance. many get their cars to a driveable but less than satisfactory state as all sorts of issues are introduced. It's not impossible to work things out with back yard engineering, It is common that every single issue is not worked out properly.

point to point wiring is easy to fix, newer cars tended to have an ever increasing number of unnecessary wiring. If you wanted to simplify it you could probably pull out everything and put back only what's necessary and use a carb and old school style distributor, eliminating the ICU, engine sensors, all are unnecessary electronics.
Instead of FI. a lot of that wire is to run useless stuff like window winders, mirrors, sunroof, window or seat heaters, speed control, it has lots of hoses and electrical gizmos that are unnecessary to the proper operation of the vehicle. . the locking system. Many were added as "features" to increase sales but in older cars, In increased complexity means more to repair.

[djnolan]

This is about how I feel about swaps and re-engineering. I had an 85.5 944 automatic with about 200k miles and installed the Rouge MAF kit. It went through 2 automatic transaxel's in fairly short order. Was it the 10 HP increase or the responsiveness, or were both transaxle's ready to give out? I sold the car on craigs list with the original AFM installed.

Edit: for the record i was not giving up on 944's as I had two others. The Rouge MAF was switched over to a 944 NA 55P weekend driver and it runs great.

The point I was trying to make is that re-engineering could cause unexpected and expensive problems.

[Monkey Wrench]

here I can say my car is original and then I can get cheaper insurance if it's classified as a collector car, which it will qualify for. Also if I sell the car it may be more attractive original than modified. A resale price may of course depend upon the extent and success of such mods. I'm not saying they are impractical, just that they aren't my choice.

I have been seeing a few local, nice looking automatic versions that need a new rubber mounted flex plate for around about 2-3K maybe those ones are economical for such conversions since they are being sold in a broken state anyway. from what I'm seeing they aren't being snapped up fast, maybe because of shop rates affecting the cost of repairs.

i think there was a past post where a mod was suggested to replace the failed rubber part with springs from a car with a clutch. I could stand corrected on that. Others may know more about that stuff.

[962porsche]

this is the 13th chevy V8 swap I have done. this swap is an LS3.
by far the lowest cost swap to do is to use an old 350 SBC engine but now dated but they still offer good power.
the LS1's are the common swaps now also not to costly.
the LS3's are a bit more cost.

the stock trans will hold up OK as long as your not into doing burnouts all the time.
on one of our cars with the 350 SBC engine with about 300 HP we ran the 83 stock trans for years doing about 20 track events with the car every season.
the 951's trans are a good way to go.
the fuel systems are not a big deal the parts to convert to the LS engine are a few hundred dollars.

I love the 944 chassis it's a great design however I totally hate the 2.5 engines.
if your 944 needs a new engine swapping in the chevy is one of the best ways to go.
when VW backed out of the deal with porsche and left them with no engine for the 944 porsche could have made a better choice than what they did.
the LS engines will add about 50 LBS to the car.

if you join one of the 944 V8 swap forums you get your questions answered.
there is so much info on the swap forums you will not be having to deal with figuring out things by your self.
I make many of the swap parts myself for our swaps but there are places that offer every part and tech info to do the swaps.

[colingreene]

My hot take is that if you are having trouble getting the car working as factory then maybe doing a engine swap is not something you want to tackle

[Monkey Wrench]

"if your 944 needs a new engine swapping in the chevy is one of the best ways to go. "

Sure really neat project if you want to build a race car and can afford the several thousands to make it happen , then its a fun project we can all admire. For a street use car, for a common working bloke, it's completely impractical. Fun to see what you did there though. it is very admirable to re-engineer a whole car like that. I think most of us do recognize this as a giant and very expensive mechanical feat. I certainly don't mean to knock your cool projects. It is very interesting to see.

[azbanks]

The man with an opinion is never at the mercy of a man with experience.

Very expensive???

Try building an S2 as a proper turbo and throw in ITB's, COP sequential ignition and sequential injection.
You are looking at forged rods and pistons, custom valves and valve springs, custom high flow injectors, fule rail and fuel lines, machine work on the head and block, custom one-off intake and exhaust, custom head gasket, custom engine/turbo mount, don't forget the actual turbo, aftermarket engine management system, custom wiring harness, and the list goes on and on.
I've been gathering parts for years and I'm not done.

[962porsche]

the misconception is that doing the SCB or LS swap is a high dollar thing and only good if your building a race car. so not true.
I have done a number of the SBC 350 engines for as little as a few grand.
the LS swaps depending on just what LS engine you go with are also far from high dollar swaps but the LS engine will cost you more than a SBC.
if your handy and can do fabrication work you can fab up many of the swap parts you need.
you can buy the hole swap kit for about 5K and this would give you everything to do the swap.

are the 944 chevy swaps streetable oh hell yes and very reliable too.

[Monkey Wrench]

I did a bunch of performance mods with my 66 Volvo. Mostly things not visible except that it has a biger valve head, polished ports, balanced, forged pistons hotter cam overdrive trans, lower gears, 2 litre pistons , up from 1800. same block. a bit stiffer springs but tried to keep things looking as original as I could with my budget.

I learned a lot and loved doing it. No regrets ! The thing is, since I spent so much time on the car I actually seldom drive it, when I do I really want to drive it hard, mostly just because it's fun to, I get a real rush from it. My goal was to not change the appearance , much , my goal was to get about 20 - 30 % more power and keep up with modern cars, but not change things like wheel bolt patterns , ride height etc. It was quite successful.

I tend to do that a few times a year, feeling that I need to spend about equal time keeping it up. It's not worth bundles of cash, But I spent so much time at it in my Younger days that now, I'm kind of attached to it. If and when I get the extra cash I'd like to paint it again , look after the rust that grew over time.

i bought it in 84 so Ive owned it a long time, it outlasted a lot of girlfriends ;-)
I never completely finished it to a restored state due to the mortgage , buying my house, twice ;-) I never owned my own garage so it's been in tents all the way except for the first 20 years as a daily driver. I'm sure I have a half million miles on it at least, it wrapped a few times..

I can relate to the desire to modify cars and have fun doing it. Just not in a position to spend thousands on stuff like that right now. If you are, all the power to you and I'd love to see pictures.

[962porsche]

if you take a stock engine and you start adding more power upgrades you may get to the point that you have just made a ticking time bomb.
with the LS swaps in most cases your taking a stock LS3 Vett engine like in the build we are doing now and stock right our of the box we have something like 430 HP and torque. weight difference between the stock 944 2.5 and the LS3 is about 50 LBS. with this your getting stock reliability and good drivability. your also getting an abundance of parts that every auto parts store has for very low costs.
you don't need to be some fantastic A tech to do these swaps a decent B tech can easily do them

[smokin_944]

962porsche, do you know anyone that might be interested in doing an LS1/LS3 swap in a Series1 944? I am looking to see if I can find that someone. I do have an AOR transaxle with cooler already but I need to find a mech to do the swap before I buy everything needed for the swap.

[murrayg]

Interesting chat here so far......and for the most part - Factual! Thats rare these days. I have two LS swapped 944's, one a street LS6 400WHP/TQ 84, and an 89 S2 5.7l racecar. Both are aluminum blocks, which I would STRONGLY recommend. The 84 LS6 was swapped in 2012 and currently has 60,000kms of Canadian summer driving on it. I drive it like I'm 18 (I'm 60!! lol), it has never let me down, constantly makes me smile, and sometimes laugh. I also used it to teach my 18 year old son (he was really 18! lol) to earn his race license for the 89 S2 racecar. He has done 100's of laps at our local track ( Atlantic Motorsport Park – The heart of racing in the Maritimes! ), again, the car never missed a beat! AND it's fast! My advice, just do it, but don't "half ass" it. Use an aluminum block engine (Porsche engine -445lbs LS6 engine - 487lbs Difference - +42lbs), keep the power brakes (BMW hydroboost or Mustang with 944 MC), and if it's a non turbo / S2 car, then upgrade to the better brakes, and use any turbo transaxle. Smokin, we're in the same country, but along way apart. Otherwise, I'd do your swap.