You guys will think I am Crazy...

Porsche 951 Fanatic · 02-03-2001, 10:24 PM

Ok You guys will think I am Crazy... and also not want me on this board probably but i feel like we are friends and stuff...... but ok to the point....

I have a 82 mustang... and well its got a crappy little 2.3 liter in it as we speak.. and it has been giving me troubles... and i was originally going to put in a small block V8 but i just recently was offered a 6.0 liter? its a 360cubic inch or whatever in english..... But should i put it in the mustang? and i also had what to me was a breakthrough idea -

Here Goes....
It is carberated - although i may convert it to fuel injection sometime..... but ok here is what i wanna do... if its at all possible can i block off the fuel delivery to every other port on the firing order so taht fuel isnt delivered to the cylinders and then lean out the mixture from the carb or where ever so that half fuel is delivered to half of the cylinders in effect making it a temporary 4 cylinder that is 3.0 liters and then when i wanted to either race it or felt like more power i could swith it back to 8cyl - i mean does that seem possible? would it run ok? i would imagine because its the same as unhooking 4 sparkplug wires.......

also i think that the transmission is capable of the tourque/HP because its a truck tranny... T-15 or something although i need to have a adapter plate made.... its a mopar engine

also do you think it would be possible to use the suspension out of a ford aerostar along with the 4wd and all that to make a 4wd mustang.....

And I will tell you guys right now we need to make a 944 carrera 4 turbo or something - we should all team up and buy a donor car and then like modify it or something... that would be awesome.....

oh and when i had the 944 i had this idea because i kept hitting the nose on steep driveways etc etc and well what i thought about making was a air leveling system that made it so that when you were approaching a steep driveway or say going to a fair and driving through the grass or something you can hit a button and it would inrease the ride height by a few inches by filling air shocks that are say - somehow attached to the a-arm and the shock towers although the original would still be there - and then when you wanna go back to normal driving you release the air and leave the valve open so that they have normal travel - it would be activated via a switch with help from silenoids etc etc - is it a good idea? I mean i know they make air shocks for the back - but this isnt replacing shocks because - well heh.. i dont think you wanna hear about this... if you have Q's lemme know... but does it seem like a good general idea? I am going to put it on my mustang probably

Ok well if you guys hate me then so be it but i love 944's and 951's just all i have is a mustang and well i think it would be original to do some of this stuff.. also i am going to buy a whole mess of fiberglass and supplys to make it and then i am going to fabricate panels for the mustang.... and when i get my 951 - probably in 3 or 4 years I will see about making kits for it.. and if i can easy then ha.. i will probably attempt to sell them for a way cheaper price than all these other people do.....
anyways later for now - i hope i made no one angry

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Former owner of '85.5 Porsche 944
Now owner of '82 ford Mustang <-- Gunna be a Rally Racer!!!

Kaos · 02-04-2001, 05:48 AM

Just one note on the Carrera 4 944. First of all, besides the huge amount of work it would take to engineer such a beast, 4wd cars are usually slower. Just look at the Eagle Talon. All of the racers use the fwd version because it is much lighter, and you don't even need 4wd 98% of your driving. Also, look at what Porsche itself is doing: coming out with the GT2 (which is based on the 4wd Turbo) which is rwd and faster than the turbo.

Bottom line: very expensive, very time consuming, slower.

About your mustang. I would rip out your 2.3 in a hurry. As far as hp/dollar, the Ford small block V8 is probably the second cheapest in the world to buy for (after the chevy small block).

You can build up a 400hp 302 for about $3000-4000. I am kind of a closet mustang fan myself, and would like to buy a 5.0 LX at some point in the future to play around with.
If I were you, I would use a carburettor. They are really cheap compared to FI, and can deal with a large amount of engine mods fairly easily. They are not ideal for all conditions, and you will lose some hp, but they are definately the easiest way to go.

Another option to look at is turbocharging. I have a total beater 1988 Ford ranger with a 2.3L in it. I picked up a 2.3 turbo for free from a buddy of mine. My engine came out of a 1984 Turbo Cougar with 180hp. They also made versions of this engine with 225hp in the SVO mustang. So, I am going to have a turbo charged Ranger in the near future (I know I am going to get flamed about this). Just think of it this way: motor mounts and trans mounts are the same, oil pan clearnce is the same, and you know it will fit. All you need is an electric fuel pump to give you the 43psi fuel pressure, hook up the wiring harness, and you are all set to go with 180hp!

Your 4/8 cyl idea is interesting, but very hard to retrofit. GM tried this in the 1982 (maybe 1983?) Cadillac 4-6-8. They would turn off either 4 or 2 cyl for highway cruising and fuel economy. This engine was a complete flop. They only sold it one year because it was such a disaster, and you would be extremely hard pressed to find a running example today. I saw one once.

I know that Mercedes Benz currently does the same thing in their S500, which is a 3 valve per cyl 5.0 V8. I have driven this car and can say it is one of the finest automobiles in the world. Fast and smooth. What they do is have some sort of mechanism in the valve train to disable 4 of the valve rockers (can't remember if it is the intake side or the exhaust side). So, the valves remain closed on the unused cylinders and they also turn off the injectors to those cylinders. The transition from 4 to 8 cylinders is very smooth - you can't even feel it.

You could try and rig up a similar valvetrain if you are a good valvetrain engineer. If not, good luck. It would not work with a carburettor, as you would never be able to get the right amount of fuel to the right cylinders. You would need injection for sure.

I like crazy ideas, but they will remain ideas unless you have some serious time on your hands, and a good machine shop to work in. Also keep in mind that Mercedes probably spent at least 5 years developing this for themselves (with almost unlimited resources). Do you have 5 years and unlimited resources?

Kaos 1985/2 944

Rollins · 02-04-2001, 10:32 AM

HAH those are pretty strange ideas. Honestly, what would be the purpose of doing all that crap to your car? I mean the whole cylinder thing. It would prolly cost you a lot.

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Former owner of a 85.5 Porsche 944
Currently own a 95 VW Jetta.

Porsche 951 Fanatic · 02-04-2001, 08:16 PM

....... I think there good ideas....... But the cylinder idea is because i have been virtually given a 6.0 liter V8 and i need a engine for my car, Feel like engineering something, and need good fuel economy.... Plus it would be almost breaking new turf.... A adventure shall we say......

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Former owner of '85.5 Porsche 944
Now owner of '82 ford Mustang <-- Gunna be a Rally Racer!!!

[This message has been edited by Porsche 951 Fanatic (edited 02-04-2001).]

Rollins · 02-04-2001, 08:32 PM

That idea is completely stupid. The economy wouldn't be THAT much better. Especially not after you put all that money into actually doing it. Don't waste your money on stupid ****.

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Former owner of a 85.5 Porsche 944
Currently own a 95 VW Jetta.

[This message has been edited by Rollins (edited 02-04-2001).]

wolfrpi · 02-04-2001, 10:42 PM

Look at the latest edition of Sport Compact Car for ideas on the Ford 5.0 motor. It states basically that the 5.0 has to be extensively modifies to develop serious hp. As mentioned above this is some pretty serious money. Don't waste your time or money. Buy a 951 with the money you saved by not changing your car. You'll be much happier in a year or two.

Erick

wolfrpi · 02-04-2001, 10:51 PM

BTW...my 951 has only minor mods (but still running at 17psi in 4th gear) and 5.0s are great fun to mess with. These guys get right up on my bumper almost every time I see them! Yeah they sound cool...but I just play with them...A late model (95+) Cobra came up to me last night on the highway. I was going about 80 and he pretty much tailed me. I dropped it in fourth, punched it and suprise, suprise he wasn't so confident and decided to leave me alone. 951s are so much fun...Figure stock 951s run the quarter in the mid to high 14s and with about 50-60hp with some simple mods (about $600), they're pushing between 270-280 turbocharged hp plus a ton of torque (300+ I believe). This translates into mid to high 13 second quarter miles. Do the math...cheap 951 for less than 5k and $600 in mods...and you've got a car that can hang with even the new 911s. It was a pretty simple desicion for me!

Erick

Porsche 951 Fanatic · 02-05-2001, 08:43 PM

Kaos, wolfrpi thanks for your replys... and for not making me feel like a complete ass..... It would be an interusting adventure to mess with the 4/8 cyl thing but i think that wolfpri's idea is a little more appealing.... as for the engine swap i am going to have to do something fast the 2.3L engine just died on me.... It was weird as hell i have to mess with it this weekend, it started normal then all of a sudden just acted like it was starved of fuel or some thing then died.. I am wandering if somoene didnt put sugar in my tank or something and also someone slashed my tire or something i am going to have to inspect it more closly.... But all i can say is thanks for the advise you guys

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Former owner of '85.5 Porsche 944
Now owner of '82 ford Mustang <-- Gunna be a Rally Racer!!!

Tabor · 02-06-2001, 10:28 AM

Your idea is not stupid. I was actually talking to a master mechanic about it very recently. The main problem is that while 4 of the cylinders were not engaged, you don't want them creating vaccum and compression in the cylinder. This means modifying the valve train. And if you just leave the exhaust valve open, you would probably cook your valves in a hurry (?).

What you need is a setup like the new BMW M5 where each cylinder has it's own butterfly valve for air. (all computer controlled)

I don't think your should take this on unless you have a complete maching shop and are also a 31337 h4x0r, an electrical engineer, and a mechanical engineer.

Cheers,
Tabor

1.2gees · 1.2gees's Garage

The idea may seem well at first, however you will not be able to complete it! Even if you did, just the rotating mass, and compression of the cylinders not used will result in (relatively) high fuel consumption. This is assuming you can cut off ALL fuel supply to the cylinders not being used.

Extended periods of running half the cylinders may pave the way to new problems, such as heat stressing...

You will not be able to do this effectively, even if it was made to work, it would definately not be worth the gas money it would save you!
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

Kaos · 02-06-2001, 09:30 PM

The best way to remove unwanted cylinders from use is to close the valves and turn off injection and spark. Even though the closed valves cause compression on the upstroke which slows the piston down, the vacuum on the downstroke is equal in force and speeds the piston up. This makes a net force of zero. The only losses are the piston ring friction on the cylinder walls which is ultimately released as heat.

Another complication is the extra waves caused by the unused exhaust tubes in the system when the cylinders are shut off. This would cause unwanted pressure reversion and would affect volumetric efficiency.

As I mentioned earlier, I do not think it is realistically feasible in one's backyard, but it is obviously feasible for OEMs.