Replacing timing belt, debating about the seals

[howdo]

Just picked up a 88 944 in December (90 k miles). Haven't drove it yet because the there is no history of the timing belt or water pump being changed. I was planning on NOT replacing the seals at this point because I really dont what other repairs that will be needed to make it a reliable car, and I didn't want to break the bank so soon. I thought I would replace the water pump, belts and rollers now, and do seals the next time i replaced the belts.

So I started the job, and noticed a fair amount of oil residue on the inside of the timing belt covers. I also noticed some oil near the back of the camshaft sprocket housing and where the cam tower meets the head.

Is this amount of oil a concern? Does it seem like it is from the camshaft seals?
Would it be a bad idea NOT to replace all the seals? Do these seals ever fail and create a huge oil leak that get could all over the belts?

Thoughts?

[walfreyydo]

I recommend doing a full front reseal (front balance shaft seals, oil pump drive gear, front main seal, front cam seal) if you are doing the belts anyways, its a "while you are in there" sort of thing.

Otherwise you will be doing it again in a years time. Make sure you do a lot of research on the needed seals. Theres an onion skin seal on the balance shafts, as well as the sleeve which must be replaced, and a very specific order of seals on the oil pump drive gear, as well as the oil pump drive gear itself which also should be replaced. The rubber seal wears a ring into the sleeves and the drive gear which causes the leak, and is why you should replace them

[944 Ecology]

Go ahead, cheap out now... you will always have time to do it right later!!!

[wwdwgs]

I second Walfreyydo and 944.
Do the front end seals, Water pump, probably oil pump toothed gear/sleeve, balance sleeves, too.
If your car has 8 valves, do the camshaft housing gaskets, too (the big one on top and the funny looking one at the very end).
Might as well do the oil/coolant radiator gaskets, too.
Thermostat,
Check all sprockets (balance, cam and others) for stripped woodruff key ways.
MIght need to get a new bolt that holds cam shaft sprockets.
That huge nut (32mm?) in the center of cam shaft sprocket is not threaded!!!!! not a nut!!! it's used to just move cam left/right for timing belt installation (without much torque).
Have fun!

[wwdwgs]

944,
you're so cruel.

[Monkey Wrench]

I dont think those seals will cost a fortune.. I can relate to the financial concerns an have a similar project. I was planning to do the belts, I'd definitely do the seals if I see oil in there like that. I hadn't considered the waterpump quite yet, maybe its not smart not to ignore it, but thought i'd at least get mine driveable and maybe go back and attack the pump after.. for sure they can fail without a lot of notice so its like paying for insurance so that it i less likely to fail at an inopportune moment.

in volvos, which i have had ore experiences with they can have an issue wth the flame trap plugging up and that can cause a buildup of pressure in the crankcase, a buildup of crankcase vapor pressure puts oil pressure on those engine seals. I don't know if similar happens with the 944 , i haven't heard that it does.

I would say though that oil on the outside of the engine from leaks like that does destroy rubber parts.. and some of that is the hoses,, often there are people having issues with vacuum leaks due to rubber parts being attacked by oil..

The expensive OEM motor mount might be a concern.. Ive seen solid ones for racing etc. Perhaps there is an after-market motor mount solution that is less pricey. I think anything you can do to cleanup any stray oil is probably time well spent because oil saturation decreases the lifespan of rubber. Like with rust , oil residue sort of never sleeps but slowly attacks any rubber it reaches. that may mean things we hadn't considered like maybe the brush holders in the starter motor or wiring connectors or who knows what else. the clutches have a rubber center and they fail too evidently.. and a OEM clutch plate seems pricey..

I think when the belt is changed it is said to remove the starter and to use a tool to lock the ring gear there, well if the starter is removed I'll probably take it apart, clean inspect brushes, check it's bearings, similar with alternator.. rather than waiting for the brushes to wear out or problems because the motor and it' armature is oil soaked..

if its apart you can feel if bearings are rough, or "noisy" the bearings themselves are probably standardized parts and available off the shelf at bearing suppliers, similar with most oil seals. some may be proprietary,, if you have time whole things are apart, you can try look for look for seal numbers or bearing numbers rather than Porsche part numbers.. then google those..

, a rebuilt starter or alternator is an option but if it works , and you are on a shoestring budget, i'd just clean it up and inspect, change the brushes if they are short,, Once all checks out ok and You've cleaned and lubed any parts where needed, etc,, you are probably "more safe" for a while. sure if you have a fat wallet you can just buy a new or rebuilt alternator or starter and replace ..

wheel bearings, similar stuff, you can take it apart and clean out the bearings, examine and repack with fresh grease, if you ignore, sure it may be fine, or it may turn and surprise you.. but at 35 years I think that's a thing i will plan to check, especially since my brakes are stuck and plan on replacing caliper seals.. IF i have a caliper off , it's a good time to go a bit deeper and look at the bearings and repack them and maybe change a seal or a bearing in there if needed.. That's all more work than parts expense.

I believe if we look into the service recommendations and at some of the longer term ones, it may give a list to use as a general guide.. things like oiling your door / hood hinges or repacking bearings, or looking at the headlight lift system or lubing the cable to release the hood, or checking the battery cables and ground locations are likely on the list but not at the forefront of one's mind, as examples..

I know I can;t restore the car in a day or a week so it's a process. I was hoping to start in on mine and just then .. My dayly driver , a volvo 240 , had an issue where the signal lights stopped working.. crap I can't drive it like that.. ok it takes priority then..

darn it took all weekend just to get back where I was on friday, one step ahead , one step back.. it turned out that Volvo powers the signal lights through the DPDT hazard light switch and the hazard light switch failed.. oh but the flashers did work..

to figure that out took all weekend.. with help from some really old forum posts, I was able to feed the relay from a new wire from the fusebox directly to the relay, and that solved it for now.. I was having a very hard time understanding the schematic because it is pretty complicated.. hard to even see..

it took a whole lot of head scratching and I took half the dash apart.. at first I though ok its just a bad flasher or a fuse or loose wire,, half hour job,, no it was all weekend.. anyway I won, its driveable again now but there went the weekend..Such is life sometimes.. Bloody old cars ;-)

[OK-944]

Howdo...is this your first 944?

Later Edit: (assuming that this is your first 944)

Gotta jump in with other folks on this...and recommend that you just go ahead with the seals.

As for the oil in your photos...yes, I'd be really concerned that this can get thrown around and end up on your timing belt, which over time can cause it to degrade, and also to slip a tooth or two on the upper cam gear, which can throw the timing off enough that valves and pistons could collide and you'd need to replace valves and possibly rebuild the head.

Given that you're doing belts, pump, and rollers anyway...you're already in it for most of the cost - so just keep pulling things off and clean as you go.

When you do pull the oil pump sleeve...do note the order of stuff that you remove to get to it (especially the O-ring), and the orientation of the lower timing belt gear as its slides off of the crank. If that geared pump sleeve does have a groove, you should replace it...but do know that you might receive one that looks a bit different as some of them (like the one I replace on my 89NA) have been re-designed but which otherwise work fine.

If you are removing the upper cam gear (to change out the O-rings) without removing the cam housing itself, be careful to very securely "counter lock" the camshaft collar with a wrench braced against something solid, like the top of the air intake manifold, so that when you turn out the cam bolt itself, which can take a bit of effort, you don’t risk turning the camshaft with enough force to damage valves…and do not leave the cam belt on expecting it (assuming you’ve locked the the engine at the starter ring gear) to hold things still as you struggle (yes, it can take a bit of effort) with getting that cam bolt to break free. And whatever you do…do not use an impact wrench to remove the cam collar! While this may be tempting, you could spin this collar and ding up its keyway (slot), the key itself, and worse still…you might damage the keyway slot on the front of the camshaft itself, meaning that you’d need a new camshaft.

When dealing with the thermostat, do note the orientation of the open end of its outer lock-ring, and think about orienting the open end of this ring in consideration of your own orientation (from above or below the engine) from which you might be removing this ring in the future.

Be very careful to correctly orient each of the two balance shaft gears to ensure that these shafts can do their job correctly. It is very easy to get the bottom gear off by 180 degrees, so do check with a resource like Clarks Garage, Mike at Lindsey Racing, or George (Ecology) here on this forum.
And by no means should you simply trust the timing belts “automatic” spring tensioner to set the timing belt tension correctly. The actual tension that this device applies to a timing belt can change over time as its spring can weaken slightly, and as things get gunked up in general (like from that oil getting thrown around)…so you should always check the tension at the belt itself. You might even consider having the belt tension checked and adjusted from an experienced professional, and then with clean hands go ahead and give that belt a twist between thumb and forefinger, to see what a properly adjusted belt actually feels like.

I’ll also recommend that you check out Van Svenson’s video covering this (timing and balance belt change) topic. Lots of great “tips and tricks” in this video!

As for the variety of belt tension checking tools available, I’ve tried a number of them and have settled on Bruce Arnn’s product - but still like to do a final check by hand.

With the t-belt properly adjusted, and given your own level of new-found confidence in being able to set this tension yourself in the future, you can go the extra mile and take that auto tensioner apart, give it a good cleaning, and re-adjust its spring (mine has an adjustment locking collar at one end of the spring) to a point to where it sets the actual, “correct” tension before you lock it down. But even so…still check the tension yourself - always! And don’t forget to check again at 1000 miles…making sure to modify the adjustment to the new spec. for a belt that’s been stretched a little bit. After this just pull the top cover off a couple times per year to check it.

Again, having not waited for your response about whether you’ve owned one of these cars in the past…I’m assuming here that you have not. But if I’m wrong about this, I hope at least that you might glean something useful from my somewhat rambling, way too long text! And keep in mind that while there is much common knowledge on this forum, we also tend to employ some different approaches to solving similar issues.

At any rate…good luck - have fun, and don’t hesitate to walk away from things once in awhile to take a break!

[Monkey Wrench]

nice post 944 !
I appreciated the details, and the warnings about what can go wrong. - much appreciated.

only thinkId add, take photos! not just to show us but also it's a easy fast way to know what things looked like days later upon reassembly, even just stuff like ok where did the longer bolt come from?

obvious , but a bunch of sandwich bags to bag parts in some sort of logical sequence helps a lot. upon reassembly just start grabbing the bags in the reverse order.. It's harder to loose stuff that way too.. I know we've all had moments where we curse ourselves for dropping something little, or setting it aside with out mind on something else. you can write on the bag with a sharpie..

often I think "oh i'll remember"... and then there is some huge delay between sessions.. they cost about a nickle apiece..

[howdo]

Thanks everyone for the responses, this convinces me i should go ahead and do the seals. My hesitation was not because I was trying to cut corners just to do it later, but trying to understand the necessity of doing the seals considering a bunch of other work could be right around the corner. Also, I may only drive this car 1000 miles a year. But now I can see the logic of doing the seals at this point.

I have been watching some videos about the belt change and seals, but wasn't aware of the oil pump drivegear sleeve. Good to know.

OK-944, yes this is my first 944. And I totally appreciated the detail you provided!

Thanks!
Howdo

[wwdwgs]

howdo,
another advice:
definitely get yourself a flywheel lock.
Balance shafts (BS) have different seals, one for each, because BS rotate in opposite directions, therefore the seals must be specific to each one. Each BS seal has an arrow as a direction mark.
definitely take pictures.
Here's another video to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psmQveG7cGc
The guy on the video above has 2 or 3 more videos dedicated to 944 (especially Timing and Balance belts).
If you have 8valve engine, note that Camshaft seal has a different internal diameter (ID), than BS seals, don't mix them up.
Check proper belts alignment 3 times or 4.
If you decide to tinker with an oil/coolant radiator (cooler), you also need to buy an alignment tool, than insets during an installation instead of the pressure check valve... There are two different types - one with smooth bore (early models), another with a thread. If you can't tell before disassembly, you'll know for sure after...
What else?
for ease of reaching the work area, remove the fans and fan shroud. put a thick cardboard on the face of the radiator facing the engine to protect the fins.
Also,,, if your expansion tank (coolant) is dirty inside, use lacquer thinner to clean it....Of course, remove it before and drain it....
If you ever be in need to remove an intake manifold, inspect the rubberized studs that hold idle control "valve" and adjacent vacuum hoses. New intake gaskets will be needed.
Note: if the oil pressure gauge wont work properly after the repairs, check the wiring. In my case the oil pressure sender went bad and I bought a new one.
Note: Balance shaft sprockets are held with thick conical washers, the conical parts must be out.

All these procedures are not that difficult than what it looks now and how we explain them to you.

I did the same repairs as you're about to perform, and I ended up doing these:
1 - Timing and BS belts (as a kit)
2 - if you replace original WP with an "updated" one, know that the roller (upper right corner) on the WP body needs to be replaced with a bigger one (original is about 33mm, new one is about 46mm)
3 - Front end seals
4 - oil pump gear (or sleeve), Original has long splines, new one - shorter splines.
5 - BS sprocket (mine was overtorqued and, as a result, has damaged (stripped) keyway
6 - new woodruff keys (half-moon and straight)
7 - oil cooler gasket KIT
8 - oil cooler installation tool
9- camshaft housing gasket (top) and its endcap gasket (looks like a cow's head)
10 - new camshaft bolt
11 - new camshaft sleeve (that looks like a huge flange nut)
12 - intake manif. gaskets
13 - oil filler tube o-rings.
14 - rubberized studs (for idle adj. valve).
15 - Throttle body gasket (because of intake manif. removal)
16 - Engine mounts (Uro)
17 - two coolant temp sensors (one is for the computer, another is for the dashboard gauge). The former was still good.

In all this excitement, the started died - new starter.

for TB installation, watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpR6dWWiILk

[Bulldog9]

Originally Posted by howdo

Thanks everyone for the responses, this convinces me i should go ahead and do the seals. My hesitation was not because I was trying to cut corners just to do it later, but trying to understand the necessity of doing the seals considering a bunch of other work could be right around the corner. Also, I may only drive this car 1000 miles a year. But now I can see the logic of doing the seals at this point.

I have been watching some videos about the belt change and seals, but wasn't aware of the oil pump drivegear sleeve. Good to know.

OK-944, yes this is my first 944. And I totally appreciated the detail you provided!

Thanks!
Howdo

With all that oil, I would definitely do the seals. When I did my 44K mile refresh, everything was bone dry, so I skipped them, as I had no idea if the car would even start. This is a TIME issue, not a $$ issue, the seals were reasonably priced. If I saw any oil, I would have done it though.

If I have do do them in the next year so be it, that's the way it goes. I'm 1K into it, and next week will pull the cover off when I do a coolant change, and double check everything to see how belt adjustment looks and to look for any oil weeping at the seals.

**In addition to the flywheel lock, get the pin tool to hold the various idlers and TB rollers/gears in place while tightening.

Welcome!

[wwdwgs]

Howdo,
one more thing - in 944 world, we stick to the rule: "if you there, do everything possible".
I worked on Timing and Balance belts 4 times on my car within a 4-year period. That's because I wasn't aware of potential problems and some other problems have happened. During the third time I did all seals/gaskets except the exhaust and rear mail seal. The fourth time I had to deal with the Balance belt, because the damage (my fault).
Unfortunately, some parts are expensive.

[walfreyydo]

Read and prepare before you even touch a wrench (found through a simple google search):
https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Porsche_944_Turbo/67-ENGINE-Balance_Shaft_Seals_Replacment/67-ENGINE-Balance_Shaft_Seals_Replacment.htm
https://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/eng-14.htm
https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Porsche_944_Turbo/73-ENGINE-Oil_Pump_Seal_Replacement/73-ENGINE-Oil_Pump_Seal_Replacement.htm
https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Porsche_944_Turbo/60-ENGINE-Timing_Belt_Replacement/60-ENGINE-Timing_Belt_Replacement.htm
https://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/eng-08.htm

Dont worry, the turbo is the same as the NA cars, and for the most part, the 16V cars as well (besides the cam seal)

Make sure you carefully create an inventory of the parts needed beforehand and order them all at once, and get the correct parts for your model year

[howdo]

Thanks again for the insight. This is a great forum.

For the camshaft seals, is it best to remove the cam tower as shown in the NC944er video, or is there a safe wat to do it while its on the car?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rBlCGLDSLw

Also, thoughts on the URO vs Laso waterpump?

[wwdwgs]

You don't have to remove camshaft housing for the seal replacement.
Uro is good for simple parts - their electronic or precision parts may not be that good.

[dkraven]

I'm about to do all of my front seals, just got my flywheel lock. So much appreciate this forum and how much everyone shares. If you haven't found it yet, which seems impossible if you're looking up 944s on the internet, check out Edredas youtube channel. Here's a video with some specific tricks for the timing belt I haven't seen on any other video. He also has one for the balance shafts belt. I like that he shows the procedure on an engine out of the car, and then again in the car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpR6dWWiILk

[OK-944]

I'm so glad to see that Edredas (his name is Brent?) is giving more thorough explanations recently.

In some of his past videos (but to be fair, not all of them)...I'd find it a bit frustrating that he basically would omit most details of a particular procedure - beginning a segment by saying something like: "Just getting ready to install the belts now," and with the very next segment would come "belts are all finished and looking great!" In other words...almost no details about the actual process.

I hope and pray that he's changing his tune as it looks here - because otherwise he seems like a great person...and someone I'd trust my car with completely if I weren't already doing all of my own wrenching. Hope to meet him someday...perhaps at an upcoming 944 Fest in Ohio.

[wwdwgs]

OK-944,
Do you ever go to the swap meeting in Carlisle (Pennsylvania)?

[OK-944]

Never been to the swap meet...hope I can get there sometime!

Also a plug for another 944 fixit U-tuber...which is NC944er. I find his videos to be very comprehensive and informative - and presented very professionally and with great clarity. His video on belt changes is slightly different than that from Edredas, plus he also mentions torque settings - which I feel are pretty essential!

[djnolan]

if replacing the balance shaft seals, also replace the races or they will leak.