Auto-x results/update on my situation...

1.2gees · 1.2gees's Garage

Well, thanks for the help from many of you, but above all Im6y, for the windshield defroster part I needed to put the car back together!

I did make it to the auto-x, and it was nice to have my windows up, and comfortably stay in the car, when it rained for a change

The powersteering didn't work, I need new bushings up front, and car's off alignment big time as some of my pictures would suggest. (BTW, there are some spectacular shots on MSN. Just got my DSL reconnected, I'm going to work on a web site, as soon as I get some time off school. I'll likely be up all night for another computer app. project!!!) Anyway, I still had a lot of fun, though didn't have any bets going. This was a "test'n tune", so the times aren't going to be posted, nor are there any trophies. All my friends were doing the timed part of the course, at which we got 6 tries at. Instead I did 3 there, went to the otherside of the track, where we'd just get in line, and turn as many runs as we wished. This was great, and got me pretty good practice. I have to say, it took me the better part of the day to control the car just as I wanted, I presume this is because I haven't been driving in a while.

In the end, I had a few people comment on good car control, coming close to the cones, etc. but I didn't do anywhere near as good as I'd expect. (through the timed portion at least). But the troubles with the car +the fact that I got there late, and didn't have time to walk the course partly make up for it. I'm gonna try to fix everything with the car, for the first official race of the season, as I really want to get a year end trophy this year.

OK, now to the plans for the future:

I'm contemplating buying some lindsey racing sway bars, as they fit both types of early 944/968 suspensions. They'll cost over $1k, but I can swap these to my next car, they seem to be very high quality, pretty high rate, etc. Then I could do some mild upgrading to the rest of the susp (namely strengthenning the front a-arms, as the pics would suggest way too much camber change, under load), if I wish. However the rest of the plan goes as follows, racing seats, full roll cage, harnesses, harness guide bar, and steering wheel. All of which I can still swap to my next front engined Porsche. However all this would push back the purchase of that car about 5 months back. Currently I'm looking at this time next year.

What do you guys think?

BTW, I beat that 968, some of you might notice in the background of my photos at msn, I still hold the record for beating every single front engined Porsche, at every event I've been to!

Looking forward to your opinions. BTW, I'm happy to see the # of posts per day go up at pelican, this board really is starting to look nice

Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

Rollins · 02-28-2001, 10:27 PM

Nice looking pictures Ahmet. How long until you get your license back?

eimkeith · 03-01-2001, 07:06 AM

Can you post a link to the pics (or URL)?

awilson40 · 03-01-2001, 07:24 AM

I didn't get there either, My boy spent his savings on a Dirt Bike and has been spending most of his free time moto-x'ing... He hasn't mentioned Auto-x sence he got the bike.... Oh Well, I might have to head out to the first race just to watch. I have done a lot of work to the susp of my 924... new struts, springs, shocks... Poly-Graphite bushing are on order. I have to mount a rear swaybar this weekend. I'm also going to rig up a steering dampener(Dont laugh...I just want to give it a try to reduce bump steer)
But I realld dont know if I want to Auto-x- it... I dont know how much life I have left in the clutch.
I may just head to the first race anyway... It would be fun to watch...
Look for my car...

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http://home.earthlink.net/~awilson40/

1.2gees · 1.2gees's Garage

I get my license back in about 7 months and 17 days... However I will be looking into asking for a pardon from the governor, as I found out (through a congressman's son)

that he's capable of issuing pardons to people like me!

You can see the pics at:

http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=get_album&ID_Community=944world&ID_Topic=53

I hope you have a fast connection, there's over 100 pics there, but at least there are thumbnails. Wait for the bottom of the page to load, these are the latest auto-x pictures. Enjoy!

awilson40, I rode a few motorcycles, and really did enjoy the feel... However I'd never give up auto-xing, for anything. I also personally think that auto-xing is far safer than riding a motorcycle! Your clutch is on it's way out? Drive another car! I go to every auto-x I can, try driving a 944 without powersteering (but with a powersteering rack) and 245 wide sport tires up front! Throw in some busted a-arm bushings for extra nervousness up front, and you'll see what I went through! It was still loads of fun.

I'll post about the next auto-x, hopefully more people can make it next time.

PS: I'd personally auto-x anything that has 4 wheels!
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

Blackfoot · Blackfoot's Garage

ahmet, you have a lot of good pictures at msn, but what about the ones i liked best in your folder at excite? i'm talking about your visitors...

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it's all the pictures...

BBailey74 · 03-01-2001, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1.2gees:
I'm contemplating buying some lindsey racing sway bars, as they fit both types of early 944/968 suspensions. They'll cost over $1k, but I can swap these to my next car, they seem to be very high quality, pretty high rate, etc. Then I could do some mild upgrading to the rest of the susp (namely strengthenning the front a-arms, as the pics would suggest way too much camber change, under load), if I wish. However the rest of the plan goes as follows, racing seats, full roll cage, harnesses, harness guide bar, and steering wheel. All of which I can still swap to my next front engined Porsche. However all this would push back the purchase of that car about 5 months back. Currently I'm looking at this time next year.

What do you guys think?

The bars you're thinking about are probably overkill. Most 944 based racecars use the Turbo Cup 30mm front bar. It's plenty stiff for even a dedicated racecar. At the rear I'd recommend either the adjustable Turbo Cup bar, three way adjustable, or the more popular, and stiffer, Weltmeister rear bar. Either is fine for most applications. I know you're probably saying, "but I need an adjustable front bar" No you don't, a properly tuned suspension uses the swaybars to control oversteer and understeer. And to do that an adjustable rear will do more than enough. After dialing in my rear bar on my 944 Turbo, I rarely touch it.

Camber change under load isn't a function of a weak control arm, its a function of the arc the control arm travels as the suspension compresses. The only way to fix this is with stiffer springs to minimize the weight transfer and adjustable camber plates to fix the shock angle. If you're serious about strengthening the control arms though, about the best choice is to switch them out to the Charlie arms. Billet aluminium arms, very well made and used by a majority of the guys racing 944's. Only draw back is they are pretty expensive.

I'm glad to hear you aren't neglecting the safety upgrades. A racing seat will make a lot of difference in the way the car feels and will definitely improve you're ability to control the car. A cage is also a good idea. Though I'd caution, I wouldn't put a cage in the car if you ever intend to drive it on the street. Dangerous would be a very mild way to describe that. Unless of course you wear a helmet in everyday driving. Also, you won't need a harness bar if you add a cage. Just wrap your shoulder straps around the cross-bar of the cage. Take a look at another 944 with a cage in it. Chances are it's done this way also. I actually don't know anyone using a harness bar in a car with a full cage or even a roll-bar. This will also provide a little more safety as I'm sure your cage will be stronger than any harness bar. If you want a good compromise that is isn't to put in and remove. Look at John Hajny's bolt in roll bar. It bolts in just almost like a harness bar but functions much like a roll bar. Excellent construction, fit, and finish. I've seen a few guys at DE events with these and they seem to work well without the hassle of a full cage or roll bar.

Hope this helps. Good luck with your car. Look forward to seeing you at the track sometime.

Brian Bailey
91 NSX
87 944 Turbo - E class racecar

PS - you should check the DE schedule at VIR. It's very close to you and there are some pretty inexpensive events scheduled there this year.

1.2gees · 1.2gees's Garage

Thanks for the comments...

BBailey74:

I'm talking about camber change, due to control arm flex, which is in the positive direction. I did not refer to camber going more negative, because of the body roll. The early arms flex an unbelieveable amount! I'm planning on re-inforcing the front control arms, and not much more.

I'm thinking about the lindsey sway bars, not only because they look of very high quality, but also because they're light, and adjustible. But on top of that, I can swap these sway bars onto my next front engined Porsche. The reason I'd like hard sway bars, (as well as other upgrades ofcourse) is because I'm not going to take out the interior from any Porsche I intend to own in the forseable future. Nor any extensive weight reduction. The lindsey bars are not too expensive, and the only way I can justify the cost of them would be through the ability to swap them out to my next car. Infact, almost all upgrades I'd spend considerable money on, I must be able to swap out of my current 944. Such as the cage (that's why it won't be welded), steering wheel, and the racing seats/harnesses.

As far as the roll cage, I plan to keep the cage in the car, as it's my daily driver/auto-x or even track car. I'm going to put some high density foam, on most parts of the cage, that I may come in contact with in case of an accident, and hope for the best.

Now for the harness "guide" bar:

I've heard somebody talk about how the angle of the harnesses would not be right, if they were strapped to the roll cage, and the harness guide bar insures spinal compression doesn't take place in a (horrific) crash. +The cross brace of most roll cages I've seen are diagonal, meaning the harnesses cannot be strapped onto them.

I'm looking into driver's ed classes. However I'm more interested in a year end trophy in auto-xing this year, as I wanna put that under my belt while I'm still 18.

BTW, although it would look funny, I don't have a problem with a big (for example one from lindsey) sway bar up-front (since it's allowed in stock class, and rear sway bar upgrades arent) with 245/50/15 tires, running factory sport (but stock) rear sway bar, with 225/55/15 tires! If I get both the sway bars, I'd kinda have to go onto upgrading at least shocks, and maybe springs to be competitive in street prepared, I'm not ready to, nor do I have the funds to do that in the near future.

I'm planning to take an auto-x driving school in the next two weeks. I've been cleaning my engine compartment all day today, if I can find/fix my powersteering problem, and the car's drivable by next weekend, most likely I'll be posting some pics from that event as well.

FYI: I'm working on getting a video card that can capture mpegs from my digital video camera. I'm expecting to post some videos of events I do in the next 3-4 weeks or so.

Thanks for all the info/comments etc, please keep them coming. (Specially about upgrades to my current car, in respect to what can be swapped out to the next front engined p-car, as well as harnesses/cage, etc, and other advice).
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

Rollins · 03-01-2001, 12:17 PM

Hey....I agree with blackfoot

lm6y · 03-01-2001, 03:28 PM

COOL! I'm glad to hear it went well. I'm sure a little bit of "wheel time" will have you carving corners with the best of them.

BBailey74 seems to know what he's talking about, and has some experience, so, listen to him, not me.

Awilson, Just do it. You know you want to.... besides, clutches aren't all that bad to do!

1.2gees · 1.2gees's Garage

I'm getting very mixed reviews about this one. I've e-mailed several people specifically about these sway bars... (I want to buy sway bars once, if I can't swap them, that would rule out anything I'd buy this year. If they're not adjustible, I wouldn't even consider them for my next car. The ability to swap them from an early car, into a late one rules out all of them, except for the lindsey racing bars. BTW, they're manufactured by another source).

So anyway, I want to buy the ultimate set-up, that I can adjust to my car, no matter how wild they may get. I've been looking for a while, and the sway bars from lindsey seem to have both the best quality, and the hardest (when adjusted to hard settings).

The majority opinion so far is (mine included) that these are overkill for a street car. However many people suggest that they're extremely good bars for a track, or track/street car. At the moment that's my opinion as well.

I was changing my speedo cable today, and just when I started to pull the cable out of the spindle, my radiator started leaking! Yes just then, I saw the very first drop find it's way from the fan switch, onto my JUST cleaned garage floor! Ofcourse I was thinking WHAT THE @#$%! OK, so now I have the speedo cable, some more headlight wiring, sun-roof switch, headlight switch, powersteering leak, and AC to worry about.

Oh, before I forget, my a-arms are still mysteriously eating into my subframe. The arms just slide out of, chew through, break (whichever one applies to the bushings I'm using) the bushings, and start wearing into the subframe! BTW, next race is next weekend!!!

I'm ordering parts right now, wish me luck!

Any comments, suggestions, etc are appreciated as usual.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

BBailey74 · 03-02-2001, 12:53 PM

If you're control arms are actually flexing, then you really need to change them out, not just re-inforce them. Just as a matter of safety, I've seen what happens to a car when a control arm breaks at medium to high speed, it isn't pretty at all.

The Lindsey Bars are manufactured by Kokeln. Check out their website, they make a ton of stuff for the 944 Series.

http://www.kokeln.com/index.htm

The Turbo Cup bars can be moved from car to car. No problem. I know a couple of guys racing I-class 944's with the Porsche Club using the 30mm front bar.

Stiff isn't always better with a sway bar, especially on a near stock car. Just a thought. Close to stock cars use body roll to increase grip.

If you truly want the ultimate set-up. You should buy the Kelly-Moss driver adjustable swaybars. They run a couple grand per axle and are custom made as stiff or soft as you want with some adjustablity around that point.

But of course, its your money so its your call.

Every cage/roll bar I've ever seen has a horizontal bar along with a diagonal bar running behind the front seats. If the one you are looking at does not. I'd look somewhere else quick. You wrap the harnesses around the horizontal bar. In my racecar, the bar is just above the harness holes in my racing seats. Again, I'd personally rather have my harnesses secured to a roll bar as opposed to them being redirected with a harness guide bar and secured to the floor of the car. Two reasons for this. First the cage is going to be a lot stronger than the guide bar in the event of a collision. Second, a harness stretches one inch for every foot when put under tension (such as a wreck). The longer your harness, the more stretch you're going to have. A concern when the harness straps get long as it can allow you to hit the steering column.

Good Luck.

Regards,
Brian Bailey

PS - If you've got access to email, you should consider joining the racing email list on Rennlist. Lots of guys there with real racing experience as opposed to second hand info. I'm pretty sure most of them will back up my comments.

1.2gees · 1.2gees's Garage

Turbo bars fit to both early, and late suspensions? (I really don't think so, but?) I think only the rear can be swapped out.

I'd buy the Kokeln sway bars, through lindsey, as they (seem to) offer a warranty, and kokeln doesn't. I've also heard nothing but +about their customer support, so the small price differance MAY be worth it.

Either way, cockpit adjustible bars a little too much IMO. This (and others in the forseable future) car is a street/track car, not a dedicated race car. Even then, cost+extra weight, and installation would probably keep me away from these. I don't have a problem with adjusting sway bars before the race, although it would certainly be nice to do it on the fly!

The only cages I've seen are what's advertised in the mail order catalogs. I'd like something a little more etxensive, but it has to be bolt on (as with almost everything else), so it can be swapped to my next car. Also somebody at rennlist was suggesting strongly against putting the harnesses on the cage, and that a harness locating guide bar wa absulutely necessary. I don't know enough to comment on this one. But it's not hard to see that if the roll cage cross brace angle is good enough, then a harness locating bar is just added weight!

Control arms flexing: I don't know what to say, my budget doesn't allow me to even consider that, for my current car, an 84 944. This is NOT a really highly modified all out racer, it's my street car, that I race. (mostly auto-xes so far). I cannot justify the cost of different control arms for this car. I'm certain I'll get something like FABCAR for the 968 or 951 though.

Thanks very much about the comments, I'll try to keep up with Rennlist...
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

drew1 · 03-03-2001, 03:59 PM

Ahmet,
I've seen reinforced by welding plate or angle control arms on round trackers & even shortened or lenghtened hold up good. On pavement instead of dirt though, you would have more stress. I would recommend low hydrogen (7018) rods for stick welding, high carbon rods for tig welding and the 75/25 argon/carbon dioxide gas on wire feed.

As for sway bars, I quit talking about them because people think my idea of them is stupid. The bar is linked on each end to a control arm & mounted close to the ends by the cars body. When one wheel is loaded (outside one in a turn), the spring or torsion bar is loaded causing this part of the car to lower. The sway bar is twisted by the movement of the control arm in the car's lowering on one side to raising on the other. This twisting or trying to untwist of the sway bar loads the outside wheel more with the load from the inside wheels springing. The result is loss of traction from the outside wheel being overloaded and not enough load on the inside (the sway bar is trying to push the control arm against the spring) to give it good traction. Have you ever seen inside wheels off the gound with very little body roll? It is the sway bar. I think their stiffness or diameter selection should be made with consideration of spring or torsion stiffness and body rigidity. It is my opioin that you can go too stiff on sway bars. I think it would be a good idea if the were sold on spring rate instead of diameers. You can buy springs based on spring rate. But I guess you wouls still have to figure out the real rate at the wheel like with a spring.

On bushings tearing up. Bushings are what is considered a plain (not antifriction) cylindrical bearing. Some of the 944 racers are using uniball type bearings on control arms. I think the ones you buy are high priced. If you have material and equipment to make your brackets, the uniball bearins them selves aren't too expensive. I made some to replace the rubber in the top strut mounts for my 914. You might want look at different material for regular bushings than what Weltmeister uses. The front front can be made on a lathe, but you would need a mill to put that flat on the front rear. I'm not a real high educated person so I have to use simple ways to figure out things. The "Machinists Handbook" gives a lot of formulas for figuring out loads and stresses. It also gives strengths of many materials but my old edition doesn't cover plastics, don't know about the recent edition. With some arithmatic, guesstimaing your center of gravity, some of Issac Newton's stuff (Force = Mass x Axcelration, etc), your 1.2 G, & some of these formulas you could come up with the loads at the bushings. When selecting material, remember that an oscillating load is tougher on a bushing than a rotating load. I like two different materials for the bushing and what is turning in it to prevent galling at pressures from high loads. Also when looking at materials a high modulus of elasticity makes precision machining easier because the part doesn't give as much then spring back while cutting. Some of the plastics are self lubricating but some also have limited moisture absorbing so the could soak up water and seize on tigth fits. I'd say add grease fittings if you go with bronze or aluminum and some bronzes may wear the internal parts.

Hope this gets through, I got disconnected so many times.

drew1

1.2gees · 1.2gees's Garage

drew, strengthenning the existing control arms is my only option as far as I'm planning to go with the current 944. I don't have a huge budget, and I'm saving for my next car (I'm an 18 year old student).

Ofcourse the sway bars CAN very easily be too stiff for a given car, but I'm planning to increase the stiffness of the 968/951 I buy, via a full roll cage, and I'm planning on 525-750#/inch springs so the lindsey bars shouldn't be an overkill. +They're adjustible so why not get them now, and use the front bar for auto-xes at (mostl likely) a very soft setting for the given bar.

My bushings tear up, that's not the problem I'm most concerned with though! (I know they get loaded big time, under cornering). The poly graphite bushings aren't too bad in ressisting cornering forces, but they get deformed quite badly in 5-10k of driving/racing. My problem is the control arms slipping off the bushing, and eating into the subframe. I'm buying a new subframe, and going to try putting a bearing/or forged SS washer (if I can find one) between the subfare, and the control arm. I still have the stock calipers, and stock diameter rotors, so I don't see how the braking force could be high enough to drive the control arms over (or through) the bushings, and into the control arm.

However I do remember an instance where I used an old clamp (at the caster adjustment point), along with some cheap bolts from a local hardware store, to drive the car to the alignment place. I was planning to swap the new parts, when the car was on the lift, right before getting the alignment. It ended up bending the old clamp, tearing the bushing out of it, and bending the control arm a little, in about 3 miles of admittedly hard driving. However if I cannot find anything wrong with my car, I'll be pretty dissapointed in Porsches design with the early front susp. (The rear is pretty good as far as ressisting damage, when modified).

Anyway, don't let any of this fool you into thinking I have a hardcore race car, I don't. It's just a weekend auto-xer. I'm planning to track the car, in less than a year (likely in april).

PS: Got most of the dash back together, filled the car up with powersteering fluid, and I don't see a leak! Drove the car a few times, hasn't leaked a drop! (I tightened one of the banjo bolts, and it's been OK since, I'm hoping that was the problem). Felt so nice to have EVERYTHING work on my car. I can now honestly say, AC and brake pad wear/seatbelt lights are the only things that don't work! Yay!
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

wolfrpi · 03-04-2001, 12:27 AM

Ahmet, why don't you just by 85.5 and up control arms. I've got an extra set from my 86 951. They're aluminum and won't flex like the stamped steel ones on your car.

Erick

drew1 · 03-04-2001, 07:39 AM

Ahmet,
Congratulations on stopping ps leak & getting stuff working after taking dash apart. Reckon I could get Scotty to beam you down here next time I'm messing with a bunch of wires & plugs.

On the bushing/control arm subject, what you are saying that the control arm eats through the flange on the front bushing, making it slide off? I think you're on the right track with a washer or thrust bearing. Last night, while looking at the trans mount subject, I edited a post of mine to say my mounts were not technically solid but metal/plasic. This is because of pressure (think scientific name is bearing stress) or load per the area supporting it. The twin walls on the your control arm are putting a lot of force on not much area.

I fabbed some of my stuff, not because I'm rich, but because I could get better for the price. With kids in college, wife always wanting some kind of remodeling, etc, I probably don't have much more disposable income than an 18 year old in school. Needless to say, no exotic alloys like titanium & berylium copper.

Next year when you're in engineering school design some, get some material and take it to a trade school that has a machine shop. The boys there would like this kind of project better than a the regular school projects. I think engineering schools should offer courses in machine work & maintenance. It's a lot easier to draw ridiculus tolerances & fastner locations on paper than it is to make the parts or try to get a wrench in somewhere to tighten a nut. You're already learning working on your car but some young men in cllege don't get this experience.

With your driving skill, you could probably run the latest & greatest, bells & whistles, like everybody else runs & do well, if you had the big money (Fabcar control arms?). You seem to have the head to come up with better stuff than what everybody else is running.

drew1

1.2gees · 1.2gees's Garage

Wolfpri, I'd consider the late control arms, but don't REALLY want them since first that'll cost me money (strengthenning early arms is free

) +would need a few other parts to make them work right... Hold on, or would I? You said 86 right? I don't remember too much on swapping suspensions anymore (cause I thought I'd have a late susp. car by now anyway!). Besides, using hard sway bars with stock springs could easily break the aluminum control arms (this is why I want fabcar on my next car). Steel won't break, just flex (but alot!!!). Oh well, if you're interested in selling, and the ball joints are OK, e-mail me.

Drew1, I was pretty darn happy yesterday, everything really took shape (I had merely thrown everything together last week, for the auto-x, worked on it all saturday night, right before the race). Now all gauges/dash lights work (but waiting on speedo cable), the gauges don't jump around when an electrical applience is turned on, no noises, everything works as it's supposed to!

About the bushings, I think you got what I'm talkiing about, the control arms slide back (on both sides) and hit the subframe. When I use stock/cheater (or you could call them updated I guess) rubber bushings/rubber with metal inserts the arms just slide over them. When I use ones with a "flange" on both sides of the control arm (these are aftermarket polyurethane or polygraphite, weltmeister is an example), then the control arms simply go through the flange on the bushing, and hit the subframe at the same location. I'll try to take pictures, when I finally get to change the subframe.

BTW: FABCAR arms are expensive, but definately needed IMO. I just have my priorities different... On my current car, I've only put a cam in the engine, and tried a borla cat back, with no cat. But suspension/brakes have been apart/updated MANY times. Admittedly thanks to the previous owner the engine's already pushing somewhere around ~167-173 at the wheels so it's not THAT bad...

Thanks again to everybody for all the replies.
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...