Replaced starter; same problem
 

'86 944:

My starter spins but does not engage the flywheel.


Here is how the problem arose: Approximately five minutes after starting the car normally, and a couple of mile down the road, I was in the middle of making a left turn at approx. 15 mph when the engine quit. There were no sounds/signs of a mechanical failure, no warning lights, nothing. It just quit in midflight, as if a critical electrical circuit failed.

When I tried the starter, the motor turned but did not engage the flywheel. Suspecting that I had two problems -- whatever caused the engine to die AND a malfunctioning starter, I had a rebuilt starter airfreighted to me.

When the Bosch-rebuilt starter showed the same symptom -- failure to engage -- it makes me wonder if this problem might actually be a symptom of the problem that caused the engine to quit; that perhaps both starters I have in my possession might actually be ok.

I've inspected the ring gear on the flywheel and it doesn't even have much wear, let alone damaged teeth.

I also replaced the ground (neg.) cables -- engine to battery and frame to battery -- but to no avail.

So I'm stuck . . . any ideas, please?

Larry

You should take the starter to a local shop or autoparts store so that they can test it. Most places do it for free. That way you know if the starter is working right...

If the two are related, it certainly makes a good argument for a bad cable or circuit connection. The solenoid receives a +12 (or 14 - I can't keep it straight - but it's a +) from the ignition switch. Could it be that some problem - upstream of the ignition switch - caused power through this cable to fail while plenty of current was running through the main positive battery cable to the starter?
I recommend asking IceShark... he helped me figure out a number of electrical troubles.
In the mean time, play it safe - the starter can pull hundreds of Amps - plenty to not only arc weld but burn you.
Keep us posted.

And, of course, lets not forget the obvious.....Bent valves

Here's a quick check..

Find the "window" hole at the cam sprocket cover, it is about the size of a dime to the right of the dist cap.
Mark the cam sprocket with paint, fingernail, whiteout etc.
crank engine
if the painted mark is in the same place your timing belt has stripped teeth at the crank...
This is the same symptom that stopped me about a month and a half ago. Going on knowledge from other models I assumed the starter.

Hope this isn't the case, maybe a bad ground or solenoid. Good Luck.

Ooops, said solenoid meant coil

yeah, the starter could be turning but your belt is either stripped or broken giving the impression that the engine isn't turning. have a look an the crank pulley while someone turns the key.

Sounds like a sewing machine?

Broken timing belt.

Bent valves.

No compresion.

$500 to $1,500.

Pay the MAN.

I was led to believe that the 2.0l engine is non interference? or are the 944's 2.5's only and above?

Oooooh, not really sure about the 2.0. We don't see alot of late 924's over here. Man, where is AFjuvat when you need him!
Still, interference or otherwise a belt check is in order. If non interf. then no harm no foul.

Good luck.

Thanks for your many replies and comments.

My dumb -- I finally had the wife turn the key while I looked at the crankshaft pully. Sure enough, it moved. The problem is definitely a broken camshaft belt.

As I rotated the engine by hand to find top dead center on cylinder one -- by lining up the flywheel mark with the mark on the clutch housing -- I ended up turning it more than one revolution. The engine feels -- to the wrench -- like it still has compression; I might have lucked out with respect to bent valves.

After replacing the camshaft & balance shaft belts (my father-in-law actually has the Porsche belt tensioning tool; now if he can just find it . . .), I will first turn the engine again by hand to check for interference in the valve train; and start it if it feels o.k.

An 86 944 with a broken timing belt has bent valves.

Please add you year and model to your signiture line in your personal profile section. This helps the rest of us when you ask questions.

If you do the work your self on the cheap you can replace the valves and just lap them in. No valve guides. No grinding. Costs about $500 total with all of the necessary seals and misc. parts.

I am in the middle of the bent valve job.

Parts so far - about $400
- this includes MANY things I found while in there (83)

National Cylinder Head in Tampa fl did awsome head work.
- $175 ..I supplied the parts


If ya need something let me know..I took lots of pics. For me, it has been a really good experience because of the age and neglect of the car. I will feel really good about it once it is back together. I think all of the little erratic performance will be taken care of.

I still hope no bent valves.

Thanks for your kind offer, TCMDocs944. I will be installing the new timing belts tomorrow, weather permitting (it's a ***** to do major repairs w/o a garage!).

Broken timing belts = new member

Best of luck with it. hope you get your money back on that spare starter motor. 8-)

Still in denial.

Try starting the engine with just the timing belt on. Don't put it all back together.

When you find out the valves are bent there will be less to take off to remove the head.

While you are removing the head keep asking yourself why you are a twit and can't listen to 944 owners that have gone through the same thing. In some cases twice.

Ok shnork

Still not beleivin. One simple test

Remove the distributor cap and rotor. Turn the cam sprocket with a wrench(vise grips over cloth work well).
It should turn easily with no real resistance.
Significant resistance = bent valves

Look at the bright side - you have to remove the dist and rotor to do the head job anyway:rolleyes:

Ps. as you may be able to tell this is a real sore subject for SoCal. Hehe.

Mark

Most newbies to the board are here because they have a problem with their car. Although I think some are here for the abuse. ;)

To share our 944 pain -- to help is what we are here for.

When a newbie comes in and doesn't listen it kind of ticks me off.

If you don't want to listen to and employ our help then don't ask.

Yes we all have our opinions which are based upon many years of ownership (or just a few months in some cases). Still to not listen to and reanalyze your observations and incorporate the new data is just asking the junk man to come and tow away your dead 944.

I would rather see a 944 project on the road than as a parts car in a junk yard.

Hugh..it's his first post

he doesn't know the odds (it is possible for a belt to break without bending valves...just as it is possible for me to win the PowerBall lottery)

all he knows right now is that you should try decaf ;-)

Hmmm....
Sorry SoCal, but I had a belt go and not bend anything. I even bought another head with out tearing the car down. It CAN happen. Let's just hope he has the same luck. I agree it is doubtful, but we can hope....

(giggle)

I find it very interesting how my "wait and see" attitude comes across as being "in denial."

Having done my share of repairs on cars that ended up being unnecessary, I've learned not to jump to conclusions too quickly. The experience with mis-diagnosing my current problem as the starter is one example of this.

Perhaps I do have bent valves. I'll find that out soon enough. The camshaft turns freely. The belt itself did not break, but it is missing several teeth. I am cautiously optimistic since at time of failure, the engine was in an idling state (850 RPM) -- with no load, and the stall occurred while I had the clutch in. I don't know how much further the engine rotated from its own momentum.

I would be much more inclined to conclude I have bent valves if I at the time had been accelerating or had been cruising down the highway at 90.

I do appreciate the advice and comments, and the personalities who make them.

Particularly SoCal, whose comment below --

"While you are removing the head keep asking yourself why you are a twit and can't listen to 944 owners that have gone through the same thing. In some cases twice."

-- reveals to me that maybe the real reason he's sore is that he appears to have had this problem more than ONCE. Well, it takes one to know one, twit.

This 944 is the first water-cooled Porsche I've worked on. I used to help a friend who raced a '59 356 in SCCA, another friend who raced a 6-cyl 914 in SCCA, and I've rebuilt a 912 engine, not to mention several VW bug engines.

Thanks again for the advice; I will update soon.

Stuff your self rightous crap Larry.

You broke your timing belt.

Your valves are bent.

I would post a list of cars I've worked on in the last 40 years but it would jam Pelican's server.

WE learn by our own mistakes, and I am a very learned person.
That said let him learn. "May the BANK be with you"

Experience is something you get just after you need it.

Good luck.

40 years...of what, you always being right? never questioned anything?

well then, there you have it...that certainly gives you the right to bash the hell out of Larry for questioning us on his first post…good going

what else did he do besides "You broke your timing belt"

tell us everything Hugh...what about the rest of us with broken belts

do you think Larry had something to do with that too?

maybe he was the Porsche engineer responsible for the brilliant design of belts that needed changing every 30,000 miles…and after replacing, if you don't get them retensioned at 1000 miles, it's the customer's fault if they break at 1001 miles

I mean…that is unique isn’t it? just one more way of making sure the Total Cost of Ownership stays at the top.

I'm glad we got him now...btw, since we all have our torches lit...where’s his house?

Quite a spirited bunch on this board at times. Wouldn't have it any other way.

One thing is for sure though, you can get some really great information, help, tech support and occasionally a little emphathy here.

If all I had were the manuals to go on with this car I'd be f@%$#$.

Well said Carsontc.
I can remember when we all hoped beyond hope when someone broke a belt that it turned out for the best, And we didn't think we were Gods that knew everything. We supported each other. I KNOW I haven't seen everything, and there is a good chance I won't see it all before I die. I spin wrenches everyday, and I see something new EVERY day. But I will be glad to share what knowledge I have freely.

aah, the good old days. I can remember when Ahmet had a STOCK early 944, and had a million questions. When members offered to drive 4 hours to help a buddy change a clutch (right Hoff ?). We are all here because we have a love / hate relationship with these cars, and want to help each other out. Not berate someone because we know everything, and they don't.

It brings to mind the old joke.... Why are porcupines, and Porsches different............

An open refusal to even consider that the valves are bent -- which they are 99.9% of the time -- then bragging that their friend knows more than 20 year owners of 944's because he works on 911's -- is just asking for it.

Ignorance can be over come through a willingness to learn. Stupidity is terminal.

I stand by my statement that Larry is a twit. At least till he shows otherwise.

how are porsches different than porcupines?

you can do that

(I'll stand by Larry) ;)

It's part of a statement about 911 owners;

"What is the difference between a Porcupine and a Porsche?

A Porsche has the prick on the inside."

As 944's were never true Porsches in the first place (just ask the Porsche purist) the association doesn't hold true with 944 owner/drivers.

Well, in most cases the exception being the poor sot that buys a 944 thinking he has joined the 911 crowd.

:rolleyes:



Good Luck with it Larry.