Oil feed to turbo

Roastin944 · 09-14-2003, 09:53 PM

Hello,

I am currently figuring out where to hook the oil feed line onto the block to go to the turbo on a N/A. Will it work on the balance shaft housing under the intake manifold, there is a plug screwed into it with a little hole, is this the stock 951 feed line location? Or does it need to be hooked into the balance shaft plug on the passenger side under the headers, or is there a totally different place? Please dont give any negative responses about turboing the N/A because its already being done, and yes i do know stuff is going to break, but i will enjoy fixing it...Thanks in advance

One more thing, for the oil return, can i just take out the plug on the drivers side of the oil pan and screw in a nipple? I mean what is that there for anyways. Thanks again

Lawrence Coppari · 09-15-2003, 02:54 AM

The balance shaft housing is where the 951 gets its oil. The oil leaves the bearing on the balance shaft and goes to the turbocharger. The oil is returned to the pan via a large banjo bolt attached to the side of the pan.

tholyoak · 09-15-2003, 03:18 AM

You could also hook it up to where the oil pressure sender used to be.

Scott R · Scott R's Garage

By a turbo block with a turbocharger attached to it, that would be easiest.

I agree with "T-ing" the sender unit, thats how I hooked up my supercharger. The next fun thing is to tap the oil pan for the return. If your lucky and have a 85.5 and up pil pan you can remove the plug thats already there and tap a fitting into that. But if you have the older pan it has to come off the car and drilled and tapped.

Sorry just read your post again, you have the later pan. You still have to take it off to tap it, or find the correct diameter insert and drill the center out and tap that. It's a pain in the ass, either way it's better to take the pan off.

Roastin944 · 09-15-2003, 09:35 AM

Thanks for the help,
Lawrence: Do you mean the balance shaft drivers side of the engine, under the intake manifold, that would be the closest and easiest. When you tap into the oil pressure sending unit, will that remove it and wont read the oil pressure on the stock gauge? Scott, your saying T-ing the oil oil so the stock sending unit still works and still gives oil to the turbo. Oh yah by the way, my setup will be more or less in the stock location of a 951 turbo, so the balance shaft hole would be easier, but looks like a small hole and does it put pressure to the hole?

Scott - I am running stock engine, a T3, Homemade TIG Welded Front mount, MSD BTM, Adjustable Base FPR, Rising Rate FMU, and larger injectors. It will be pretty reliable for a while at least, i think 8-10 pounds will work for a good 6 months or more, then i am rebuilding with custom forged pistons, which i can get for $362, custom wristpins, total seal rings, and bearings for around $200, and get the block O-ringed with stock gasket set. But for now, its the stock motor with low boost. Thanks a bunch guys

Roastin944 · 09-15-2003, 09:38 AM

Scott: I was checking that out, and it seems like the oil pan wont come out unless the crossmember is out, which means motor mounts, hoisting the engine!! That would suck, id like to get away with just screwing in a fitting directly in that hole. Could i just get the stock 951 connector to that? Thanks

Scott R · Scott R's Garage

I was not able to get the 951 banjo assy to adapt to anything I could find at a hardware store. So I removed that plug and and found a brass plug that I could drill through and tap.

And yes the crossmember has to some down to remove the oil pan. It's not a big deal.

I "T-ed" the sender in line with the feed line so that yes the sender would still work.

Now you need to invest in something to control detonation and spark advance as well as the rest of your list. Also you need to have a TIP TOP cooling system ready, once you add boost it's gonna run hot.

robm-951 · 10:42 AM

Quote:

Will it work on the balance shaft housing under the intake manifold, there is a plug screwed into it with a little hole, is this the stock 951 feed line location?

Yes, that is where the stock turbo oil supply line connects up to.

Quote:

One more thing, for the oil return, can i just take out the plug on the drivers side of the oil pan and screw in a nipple? I mean what is that there for anyways.

That is where the factory turbo oil return hose connects to.

Why not just run a factory turbo mount/engine mount, that way you could just run the factory feed and drain hoses

Rob

ae1969 · 09-15-2003, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by robm-951

Why not just run a factory turbo mount/engine mount, that way you could just run the factory feed and drain hoses

Rob

Thats actually not a bad idea.....

Also make sure you wrap all your exhausts as well. It gets flippen hot in there............. the cooler you can keep your intake charge the best chance you have of not detonating and blowing a headhasket or worse.....

If you can run 5-6 psi you should get 6 months out of it. 8-10 psi on the stock compression is a little risky IMO. The stock turbo only ran 11-12 psi on lower compression.

P.S Where are you getting the custom forged pistons for $362....

robm-951 · 09-15-2003, 01:01 PM

Quote:

If you can run 5-6 psi you should get 6 months out of it. 8-10 psi on the stock compression is a little risky IMO. The stock turbo only ran 11-12 psi on lower compression.

Running 5~6 lbs boost on a 10.6 static compression motor gives a effective compression ratio of 14.2~14.9, which is right around a 951 motor at 8.0 running 12 lbs of boost (14.5).

Running 8~10 on a 10.6 C.R. gives an effective C.R. of 16.4~17.8 which is like running 15~16 lbs boost in a 951 (16.2~17.8 effective C.R.)

So this shouldn't be a problem as long as you provide the fuel to match it and a proper timing curve. Also, since Roastin944 is in Colorado (approx 5k foot elevation), running a guage pressure of 8~10 lbs is approx. equivalent to running 5.5~7.5 psig at sealevel.

Rob

1.2gees · 1.2gees's Garage

Is it intercooled?
Ahmet

Roastin944 · 09-15-2003, 01:59 PM

Scott: Sounds good, i will do the oil return like you said and go the oil feed line out of the balance shaft housing as long as it doesnt hit the under side of the intake manifold like it seems it might do, because the turbo is on the drivers side, not on the passengers like the callaway kit.

Robm: Thanks for confirming that with me, i will go with that oil feed line. Also what your saying about boost compared to compression is very true. I think 10 pounds can be done and...

Ahmet: Yes it is intercooled. I am Tig welding a front mount that goes in the front under spoiler, not the stock location.

Also when you say the turbo engine mount, its different than the N/A? How is that, and how does using that allow you to use the oil lines, i mean lines are lines right, why would you need a different engine mount. And no im not using the same exhaust manifolds and crossover pipe and down pipe, its all custom from the N/A Top part of the header, from the 2 flanges down and under the oil pan into the turbo and then all the way out the back. Do you think that a 2.5" full mandrel home welded exhaust all the way from the turbo out with just one normal thrush muffler on the back will be too loud? Before this i had the N/A with 2 mufflers and a high flow cat with 2.5" And was loud as all hell, thanks for your guys time....

ae1969 · 09-15-2003, 03:00 PM

The 951 turbo mount has a mount for the turbo with a return hole built into it..........

Scott R · Scott R's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Roastin944
Scott: Sounds good, i will do the oil return like you said and go the oil feed line out of the balance shaft housing as long as it doesnt hit the under side of the intake manifold like it seems it might do, because the turbo is on the drivers side, not on the passengers like the callaway kit.

Robm: Thanks for confirming that with me, i will go with that oil feed line. Also what your saying about boost compared to compression is very true. I think 10 pounds can be done and...

Ahmet: Yes it is intercooled. I am Tig welding a front mount that goes in the front under spoiler, not the stock location.

Also when you say the turbo engine mount, its different than the N/A? How is that, and how does using that allow you to use the oil lines, i mean lines are lines right, why would you need a different engine mount. And no im not using the same exhaust manifolds and crossover pipe and down pipe, its all custom from the N/A Top part of the header, from the 2 flanges down and under the oil pan into the turbo and then all the way out the back. Do you think that a 2.5" full mandrel home welded exhaust all the way from the turbo out with just one normal thrush muffler on the back will be too loud? Before this i had the N/A with 2 mufflers and a high flow cat with 2.5" And was loud as all hell, thanks for your guys time....

Get decent quality "Aeroquip hoses" for the feed and return, plain hose won't hold up very well.

BTW don't you think it would be easier to install a pipe thread "T" at the sender rather then drilling into the balance shaft cover? Your going to have to take the cover off to drill it, or risk getting metal filings in the housing. Then you have to reseal the housing which is a pita.

ae1969 · 09-15-2003, 04:07 PM

If he has a later NA, the hole should be there. It has a plug on it.

Crippler · 09-15-2003, 06:47 PM

Roastin: It seems like your are putting alot of time, effort and money into this project. I would strongly suggest that you swap out the stock pistons and rods. The higher compression, plus the fact they are weaker just isn't a good idea in my opinion. When I swapped my rods and pistons I couldn't believe how weak the stock N/A rods and pistons looked and couldn't imagine running any amount of boost on them

Roastin944 · 09-15-2003, 07:34 PM

Yes there is a plug on it, and i already have a brass fitting that will fit on there, i will just use rubber fuel line and clamp it on the brass nipples, my buddies use it all the time for this, works fine.

I want to get some use out of the N/A internals, yah alot of you guys have been saying for a long time they cant handle boost, but what the hell, its all for fun and to experiment, i will use it till it starts smoking bad, i dont plan on totally cracking the hell out of the pistons, just till it seems like its getting week. When i get the forged pistons, im going to stick with a little higher compression, they will be forged and can handle it, i was thinking 8.5:1. Are the stock N/A rods really skinny too? Are the stock cast turbo rods just thicker, and how about the 86 forged turbo rods(If i remember what years they were forged). I can get a set of custom rods for probably around 350-400 bucks. Is that more worth while than getting stock forged turbo rods? If i go with a water cooled turbo, i think i am just coming off where the water line is above the headers that goes into the dash(Heater core) and run it through the turbo first.

Also another idea was to come off the balance shaft feed line, and run a front mount oil cooler and then into the turbo. Would this be a good idea and make the engine run a little cooler, better lubrication, or would this cause too much pressure drop through the oil line, if thats even possible, thanks a bunch

Roastin944 · 09-15-2003, 07:37 PM

Oh yah, the point of this is a cheap and fun project to squeeze a little more power out of it and then i am planning the rebuild in a few months. When its all doen and said, the whole setup, intercooler, all intercooler piping, all exhaust piping, turbo, hose, clamps, Timing control, fuel control w/ bigger injectors, should cost no more than $600. I know where to shop

Low budget doesnt mean less reliable, it will be WAY more reliable than alot of boosted N/A's done so far, its intercooled and has engine management... should be interesting, thanks guys

highboost951 · 09-15-2003, 08:21 PM

oh boy...

robm-951 · 09-15-2003, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Also when you say the turbo engine mount, its different than the N/A? How is that, and how does using that allow you to use the oil lines, i mean lines are lines right, why would you need a different engine mount.

The mount I am talking about is the aluminum arm that goes from the engine block down to the motor mount. On the 951, this acts as a mount for the turbocharger and as a oil drain as well. The lower drain hose attaches to the factory mount and connects to the oil pan. Also, since they there shouldn't be a huge demand for the mount, you out to be able to pick one up relatively cheap.

Quote:

And no im not using the same exhaust manifolds and crossover pipe and down pipe, its all custom from the N/A Top part of the header, from the 2 flanges down and under the oil pan into the turbo and then all the way out the back. Do you think that a 2.5" full mandrel home welded exhaust all the way from the turbo out with just one normal thrush muffler on the back will be too loud?

Not at all. The turbo will quiet it down quite a bit. On mine, I am running a 2.5" exhaust back to a 3" dynomax straight through muffler and it not bad at all. You'll want a muffler that is a straight through design for a turbo as well.

One last thing, if you are running a garrett turbo, you may want to consider a restrictor in the oil inlet to the turbo. Many people who run the garretts on the 951's experience high oil usage and/or quickly blow out the seals. From what I have read, the reason is the garretts don't require the oil pressure that the stock oiling system provides or the flow provided for the factory kkk units. While this is sort of contraversial, many suggest running a .060 diameter restrictor to help cure this.

After reading the book Maximum Boost by corky bell, the following guidelines are given for turbo oiling requirements:

at maxumum load - min. oil press. = 25 psi
at maximum load - min flow = .5 gal/min

with this info, I decided to go with a .080 restrictor when I upgraded my turbo to a TO4E. This was partly because I knew some one else running a .072 restrictor without problems and I didn't want to be going throught the oil after upgrading, since my car hardly used oil before the upgrade. So far, I have had good luck with it and hardly use any oil at all.

Are you running a water cooled turbo housing and what compressor trim and hot side are you using on the T3?

Rob