Excuse me.. did you say the front brake rotors were $1200?

I went through the same debate a couple months ago and you're all making me feel good about my decision http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif

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'86 951 Graphite Metallic/Tan

[This message has been edited by Macabre (edited 08-01-2001).]

The R2 actually had a softer suspension than the R1.

I would really love to get a gen III rx-7, and I was really thinking about it at the time I was shopping for another car to replace the turbo II rx-7 that my friend blew up on the way home from denny's by spinning the engine to 10000+ rpm's and there by destroying the turbo. Reliability seems to be one of the biggest problems with these cars though. I have a friend who had a 93' (all though for some reason he claims it was a 94'...I don't know why...I knew it was a 93') touring model fd3s, and in the 1 year he had it, it caught on fire after getting two brand new greddy (I think) turbos installed (the shop doing the work didn't secure one of the fuel lines, he hit a speed bump, the car caught on fire), causing $11000 worth of damage (somehow he got his insurance company to pay for it), then he got a used 95' engine with 18K miles on it, then came the strange boost problems, not to mentioned the racing clutch he put in went wild and cracked the bell housing, and another $2500 later, all 70 or so vaccuum lines under the intake manifold and the 20 or so others elsewhere were replaced with silicone lines and somehow fixed in place by peter farrell supercars, his bell housing replaced, and the clutch replaced with a street/strip unit instead of a full blown racing clutch. He sold the car for the same 18.5K he payed for it, with a nice set of polished 17" wheels, exhaust, intake, and more than $15000 in repairs in a years time.

That said, I think the TT rx-7 is one of the prettiest cars ever made...definitely better looking than any porsche (this is just my opinion...don't flame) and in the same neck snapping league as ferrari styling, but a bit more subdued.

I just wish they put a simpler motor in it. The 13Bt (rx-7 turbo II motor) was infinitely more reliable than the 13B-REW (twin turbo motor), and could have been developed to make as much horsepower as the REW motor with a simpler single turbo system, albeit with some lag (this is where a lot of problems stem from...one of the wrong vaccuum lines, and there are a LOT of vaccuum lines in fragile places, for the twin turbo system come off and you are overboosting the motor causing an extreme lean condition, causing detonation which will pit the rotor housing, causing lost compression, pit the apex seal, which will cause lost compression, and will flash burn the oil coating the apex seal, causing total apex seal failure, meaning a blown engine). A properly set up rotary engine will be extremely reliable. My first car, an 81' gsl-se rx-7, had an 89' 13B motor in it, and the motor had over 200000 miles on it IIRC (the car only had 135000 on it), and my dad was driving it and the lower radiator hose got disconnected, and before he knew what happened, the engine overheated and died...but if the car was properly maintained, that would have never happened.

The renesis engine (13B-MSRPE I think) would make an excellent swap for a twin turbo rx-7 (or 1st or 2nd gen) when they finally become available, because they have 280+ HP (all though the torque is about the same as the 89-91 n/a 13B), spin to 10000 RPM's, are smaller and lighter, all though they will bolt up the same, as the twin turbo rx-7 engine, are a much simpler design with no forced induction, and supposed to be as reliable as the previous n/a engines.

Another way mazda could have done the 3rd gen rx-7 with better results was to put something simpler and more reliable than twin turbos on as forced induction, like a roots type supercharger. The overall cost would have been similar, but there would have been several less instances where a lean condition would have occured, and you would probably see a lot less rx-7's with rebuilt engines and reliability problems being sold, and a lot more "money" rx-7's. But that is just my opinion.

As far as comparing the rx-7 to the 951, the parallels are all there. It is obvious to me that mazda had their eyes set dead on to the 951/968 when designing/marketing the 3rd gen rx-7, and in some ways one upped porsche. The weight distribution, size, weight, power, etc. are all very similar when comparing the two. You can also stuff about the same sized tires under the stock bodywork in both cars (285/30 18's in the back and 255/35 18's in the front on both cars, all though you will have to roll the fenders on the porsche, but I am not sure on the rx-7)The rx-7's suspension design is much newer than 1977 when the overall geometry for all 924/44/51/68's were decided, so I wouldn't be suprised if you could set up an rx-7 as good or better than a 944 series car for racing conditons.

The rx-7's would be as close to a perfect car as I could imagine if they could have gotten around reliability issues. Thats my opinion...but I sure do like my 951, and 107,000 miles on the original engine, still running strong.

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ribs, 86' 951

my neighbor has a gorgeous black one, his is on blocks in his garage working on engine job #3, first time I met him he was working on engine job #1, and that was 4 yrs ago.

he has a mazda rx7tt

[The shortest distance between two points is in my car.] snip


that's hilarious!!!!

I hate to chime in, but, as far as the rx being faster stock= a friend of mine just bought a bone stock 86 951 with 150,000 miles,
he only owned it for 2 weeks when he raced another friend with a slightly modified rx7tt,90,000 miles with new engine, (downpipe and centerforce clutch) and they ran neck and neck. It cant be chalked up to driver experience as the rx7 owner has owned his car for 5 years vs. 2 weeks for the 951 owner. They raced from a rolling start. The rx7 is faster on paper, but in the real world it just isn't there.It does feel fast when you drive it though due to the 2 turbos and gearing. Just a little fact to mix in with the fiction,hahahahaha j/k!

have fun getting parts for a rx-7.....those engines are a pain to find when you toast em.....
http://www.members.aol.com:/fty9999/...ftypelican.jpg



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"Faster,Than,You"
"Wish I had a 951....."

http://www.members.aol.com:/fty9999/944land/944land.htm

Is your friend with the 951 sure it isn't chipped? If it has been through multiple owners, one of the previous owners may have chipped it and not told him. The only way to tell is to pull out the DME and peek at the chips, but even then not all the different aftermarket chips are marked. The chip alone will make the car neck and neck with the rx-7. My 951 would pull at speed on my friends lightly modded (intake, exhaust, downpipe, ignition) rx-7 TT, but if it was from a dead stop, he would kill me off the line because they hook up a lot better at low speeds, but I would eventually catch up.

Also, I know a few people who have had performance cars for several years and have no idea how to drive them fast, in a straight line, around a curve, or at all, as this story will illustrate.

My old roommate had a 90' supra turbo and was very drunk, driving it home from the bar (which was less than a quarter mile from our apartment...why didn't the dumb F walk?), decided to show off for the people in the car, gunned it leaving the bar, forgot to turn and went over the concrete hump in the center of the road (a major road mind you), popping all four tires, braking the front fascia, destroying some of his suspension, and bending all of his wheels, went into oncoming traffic (which thankfully there wasn't any because they were all at a stop light) and landed in the parking lot of popeye's. A cop was sitting at the stoplight and saw the whole thing happen. I had to pick him up from jail at 2 in the morning, and he lost his driving job at fed-ex...now he is stuck throwing boxes. This kid doesn't know how to drive a performance car, nor did he have any respect for it (or the safety of his passengers and other drivers).

Not to go off topic (like this isn't off topic already) but I think that there should be a requirement that you have to pass some sort of performance driving test (like an autocross course maybe...you would have to take a class, too) to drive a car with a certain level of HP to weight ratio, or a honda civic. This would keep a lot of the obnoxiously bad, weaving in and out of traffic, tailgating, speeding through traffic 40 MPH faster than everyone else is going, "because my car is fast" people from being able to drive cars that they don't understand or respect the abilities of. Keep these people in the K-cars (not the turbo ones, either), the 89' nissan sentras, the 83' cadillac fleetwoods, and the kia spectras, please, and let the people who know and respect their cars abilities in their sports cars. That is all. And I like rx-7's...I want to buy a convertable with a blown motor, put a rebuilt turbo II motor in it with all the goodies and make that sucker fly...but I have no money, no where to work on the car, and no mechanical skills, so I may be SOL.

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ribs, 86' 951

If you are looking for pure performance the rx7 wins hands down. Take a look at SCCA autocrossing. The rx7 isn't even in the same class and the 951 isn't all that competitive in it's class. The mr2 turbo and honda s2000 whip the 951. The 3rd gen RX7 has been the dominant force from it's introduction until now. The Z06 Corvette has finally ended it's dominance.
Reliability is a problem. 70k is a pretty long life for the RX7tt engine. That is why I don't own one.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a definate Porsche nut. I've got a '72 911T and a '74 2.0 914. Currently I've been looking at 85.5 and up 944's and 924S's. But the results speak for themselves as far as 3rd gen RX7's go.

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Jeff Parker
72t

His car is definitely NOT chipped. I have had his DME and KLR boxes open and know what chips look like:^) I beat rx7tt's at auto-x's regularly. In fact i have beaten the aforementioned one also. They are cheaply built jap pieces of crap, IMHO of course.

Carter
85 944
86 951
87 944
88 951

hi, just wondering if sum1 could post a pic of a 3rd Generation RX-7. Just interested to see wot thy look like cos we've had 6 incarnations of RX-7s down here, the 6th being the latest http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif

Here's a pic of one.. this is an R1, I believe (yes, it's beautiful).. http://gallery.rx7club.com/images/3rd/3-gallery-22.jpg

Comparing autocross results will generally not be too favorable. Compare on a race track. Turbo lag hurts the 951 on ultra-short tracks a lot more than it does the RX-7 even if the 951 is chipped..

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'86 951 Graphite Metallic/Tan

[This message has been edited by Macabre (edited 08-02-2001).]

Although i would rather have a Turbo S the 3rd Gen is an awesome car...its a mini viper http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif

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85.5 Porsche 944

How can you guys compare a modern third generation RX-7 to an 80's 944 Turbo? They are completely different classes. I would think a minimum Porsche competitor would be a 968 or the 968 Turbo S. But its obvious the 951 will lose out to a later RX-7. That car is in the same class as the stock 993 Carrera. Which, the Rx-7 loses to.

http://eurospecporsche944.homestead.com/files/sig2.jpg

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Porsche. Es gibt keinen Ersatz.

um, you usually hate japanese cars?

I don't get it...u were talking about hondas and defending em a lot...

Anyway, does anyone here know about the costs of maintance of a rotory engine anyway?

DO things break in that engine or anything, do they require rebuilds?? Anyone had experience with em>?


[This message has been edited by AMCPorsche924Powerhaus! (edited 08-02-2001).]

3rd gens are a total PITA because of what has to be the most complicated forced induction system on any production car. Peter farrell supercars, right around the way from me (about 60 miles or so) is a shop that does nothing but 3rd gen rx-7s (well...they do is300's now...500 HP turbo kit...impressive), and they do service, repair, 3 rotor conversions, any upgrade imaginable...the works. When they rebuild a rotary engine, they replace all of the rubber vaccuum lines with silicone and secure them, because there is a lot of them on this car (70+ under the intake manifold, and an assortment in other places too). This saves half of the headaches, and the wrong line coming off will explode the engine by letting one of the turbos overboost, lean out the engine, and kabloowee.


There really is no maintainance with the rotary engine. It runs until it blows something...plain and simple. There is regular car maintainance (oil changes, fluids, radiator hoses, etc.), but the engines are designed so if you are going to service the engine, you should (and most definitely would unless your a chump) do a basic rebuild. There are very few things that can go wrong with the engine since there are no cams, valves, lifters, pistons, cranks, rod bearings, etc.

The few things that can go wrong, that in order to fix would require removal, disassembly, hopefully a rebuild (replace gaskets and bearings), reassembly, and installation are the following:

blown/cracked/pitted apex seal (the equivalent of severely scoring a piston, but not necessarily the cylinder wall)

grooved/cracked/pitted rotor housing (the equivalent of severely scoring a cylinder wall, but not necessarily a piston)

destroyed output shaft (almost never happens...it is the equivalent of snapping a crank)

rotor seals leaking oil (not a big deal...better to just deal with it and wait until the motor blows)

a few other things. This is just for the engine, and not the turbo system found on the twin turbo. The turbo system on the 2nd gen rx-7 is a lot more reliable and simple, and since the motor is identical, can take the same abuse that a 3rd gen motor can.

Check this link to learn how a rotary engine works: http://www.howstuffworks.com/rotary-engine.htm

gotta go to the bar. Later.

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ribs, 86' 951

ribs, where do you live? i am not very far from peter farrel either. Isn't he a *****!

He's in manassas, VA. I am in crofton, MD, which is near annapolis, but closer to bowie. He is a business man...thats all I will say...but not the nicest guy I have ever met. Next friday I am going to take a 2 or 3 hour lunch, drive down to manassas (its about 40 minutes from where I work in gaithersburg) and go down to PFS and test drive a FD3S or 2. That will be an intertaining lunch break. I will let you all know what I think as far as a comparison goes since I haven't driven a TT rx-7 since I have had my 951, which has been a year and a half.

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ribs, 86' 951

edit: intertaining=entertaining...I went out tonite...that is my excuse.

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ribs, 86' 951

You might find this article very relevant:
http://www.realride.com/racing/news17.html

You might find this article very relevant:
http://www.realride.com/racing/news17.html