Which 944 model is the best! Add as much info as possible!

[stupenal]

Hey everyone! Now that I've finally got enough cash to get my 944, I must decide which one. So thus, I'd like to compile a list of the pros and cons of each model (excluding 924 and 968). If you guys could just add to my list that'd be great! I also posted this at rennlist for as much info as i can generate. All that you can contribute wuold be great!

1. 83-85 944na
Pros:
a. Lighter, faster
b. Many come with Fuchs (i personally don't like the black color though)
c. easier to come by
d. cheaper
Cons:
a. old style 924 dash
b. Porsche rushed the development...thus first owners were sort of guinea pigs
c. i don't like the cookies and fuchs


2. 85.5-88 944na
Pros:
a. updated dash (from 928 i think?)
b. phone dials aren't black
c. 87 and older have updated offset so I can easily switch to c2 wheels
d. more aluminum parts and updated suspension
e. automatic belt tensioner
Cons:
a. heavier and thus slower
b. phone dials arent as strong and are heavier
c. higher price

3. 944S 16 valve
Pros:
a. more hp and faster
Cons:
a. more rare
b. more maintenance
c. increase in performance not that noticable

4. 89 944
Pros:
a. updated 2.7L engine with more hp (158 i think?)
b. by now, most of the early mistakes have been corrected
Cons:
a. hard to find
b. very very heavy
c. much pricier than the 2.5L

5. 86-89 951 and 951 S
Pros:
a. hella fast
b. easily modifiable
c. beautiful nose and rear valence for added stability
d. can easily burn up any modern car yet still look good
e. better tranny, suspension, clutch, and other engine components
Cons:
a. insurance (i'm only 17)
b. maintenance (wow....)
c. more expensive by like 4k

6. 944s2 (89-91)
Pros:
a. available in cab
b. 200 hp without turbo lag
c. beautiful nose
d. all that of a turbo but without the maintenance issue
Cons:
a. hard to come by
b. cab is really really expensive
c. I dont think many ppl here are owners, so not as much help
d. by the way, are any of the maintenance issues different than the 944na?

Anyways, i'm currently looking at a 84 944 that is beautiful on the exterior and very well taken care of. 166k miles asking 4k.

Another is a 89 944s2, also very beautiful and asking only 6700! Still havent gotten a reply from him on details. SO, hopefully you guys can help me choose which model you think is the best. Feel free to add as much as you want, I love learning about these cars.

[Sergio]

You expressed concern about not a lot of S2 owners here, and the potential lack of assistance. I think that almost all of the major operating systems are the same... I think....

[MAS]

Stupenal:

I know you want a 944, but don't rule out the 924S. They were made between 86 and 88 and are faster than the regular (non-turbo) 8 valve 944's... mainly because they are a bit lighter, more aerodynamic and have slightly better gearing (the 5th is 0.83, which means you have lots of power in 5th gear on the highway).

In case you are unfamiliar with the 924S, I have an 87... and it has an identical engine and drive train (except the gear ratios) as a 87 944.

I, like you, was in the market for a 944 for about a year. When I first saw the 924S, I initially was not interested, because I wanted the more agressive flared styling of the 944. However, a few test drives changed my mind.

Personally, if I was going to get an 944, I'd probably try and find an 83 or an 84 in the best shape that I could. I've driven a few and they seemed quicker than the later years... maybe it was just the individual cars though. Barring that, I'd probably try for an 89. They're a bit heavier, to be sure, but they have some OK power (2.7 liter engine). I'd probably avoid the 16 valve "S" model altogether, as there is more to go wrong. In fact, if I was to seriously consider an "S", I'd probably "jump right in" an get a 951 (turbo)... simpler engines, and great performance.

-MAS

[Rollins]

Yea, plus if you did get a 924 you could always try to disguise it as a 944 with the 944 fenders If I were to get any 944 I would prolly go for an 89 951. Good luck!
-Tim

[Bob's944]

You never mentioned what kinda budget you are on. All the 16 valve 944's are more expensive to maintain than the 8 valve ones. It's a numbers game, there are more 8 valves out there. Ive heard horror stories of $5,000 engine heads in 944S2's because of how rare they are. I'd love to have an S2 Cab or 968 Cab ($300 headlights???), but it's just not in the budget, i want to drive the car, not wait till I have the money to fix it. Turbo's fall under the same category, more expensive to run. There are alot of them out there, but to maintain and keep them running takes alot more cash than a non-turbo.... love one, just not in the budget.
If you opt for the more budget minded NA, you're not stuck with a slow car that you can't improve. For $300 you can chip it and increase the breathing of the engine with intake and exhaust work for about 20 hp increase. Add another $300 and get the intake bored out for even more air and maybe 10 more hp. And if you kick butt at graduation and had $700 to spend... get an aluminum flywheel and stick it on for 15 hp more or so. For under $1500 you can have the power of the S models and do it as your budget allows with bolt on adds. With that kinda work, you need to add stiffer springs and better shocks, so it doesn't stop there, but springs are cheap, shocks can be expensive. Most likely you'd want fatter tires, so you might want to find one that already has 16" wheels cause wheels are expensive.
Bottom line, buy the nicest one you can afford. Find the best condition car for the money, milage isn't everything, maintanence is easily as important. Get one with proven timing belt/ waterpump replacement and good clutch too, you don't want to get into one to have to do that in the first year. I looked 3 months before I found my lil gem, an 85.5 NA that got to vacation under a cover inna barn in Ontario Canada for 6 years of it's life. Great car, still stock, but plenty fast, and soon to be even better.

[jetmax]

I have a 944s2 cab. If you are looking for a 944 there are several things you need to consider. #1. How much are you willing to spend, #2. How mechanically inclined are you to do you own repairs, #3. Is it your daily driver.
I chose the S2 because it was a non-turbo 3L. It is faster than all 4's and I believe all 6 cylinder non turbo cars 0-60. I spent $11,500 for my cab and $1,900 for the timing belt. Did the timing belt because I didn't know when it was changed last and to be safe than sorry I changed it. Also it is nice to let people know that the 3.0L is the biggest 4 ever produced. Kind of like owning a piece of history.
Here is how I would rant the 944's.
944s2 89-91
944 turbo 88s-89
944 turbo 86-88
944s
944 85-89
944 -85
Turbo S may set you back 12-15K, S2 you are looking at 15-10K (cars to 15K are the cab),
Turbo around 11K to 8K, and 944s around 7K.
These are some real world prices I have found looking at classifieds for 6 months when I was looking. Good luck in making your choice.
John

[Obin Robinson]

for what it's worth, i like the dash in my 84 better than the dash in a later car. something about being able to move the guages to where you want . i'd call that a "pro"


obin

[Z-man]

Welcome to the board stupe!
You're on the right track by doing research upfront! That will save you from costly mistakes for sure!

The S2 for $6700 sounds like a steal: I'd be a little leary about an S2 for that cheap. According to Excellence magazine (April, 2001 issue) the going rate of a 1989 S2 is $6923(Poor) $7872(Good) and $10538(Excellent). Get that car checked out by a mechanic to ensure all the maintenance has been done. I suspect the rubber center hub in the clutch is probably shot ($1000 to $1500 repair). Note: It's always good to have a pre-purchase inspection done by a mechanic who is knowledgeable about Porsches.

That said, there are at least a dozen or more of us on this board who are S2 owners, myself included. Even though the car is rare (I think there were only some 4000 S2's made world wide), MOST of the parts are interchangeable with the NA and/or the Turbo, depending on the part.

The S2 has 208hp. Great power for a 4 cyl engine. However, without spending a whole bunch of cash, this car is difficult to modify for more power (ex: for 10-14 hp, an authority chip will run you $400.00!!). If 208hp is sufficient for you (it is more me!), then you'll be satisfied with it. Otherwise, you can opt for a 951 or TurboS: they have more hp to begin with, and can be modified more easily.

If you're considering the na's, I'd say go for 85.5 and up. IMO, the updates outweigh the heavier car (no pun intended!) I also agree that a 924S isn't a bad option either! (I am considering getting one to make into a track car myself!)

I've got some documentation that could be helpful for your search. If you're interested, I can email them to you. Just let me know at: z-man@944fanatic.com

Good luck in your search!
-Zoltan.

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My toy: http://www.pelicanparts.com/gallery/Z-man

[Bob's944]

$1900 for a timing belt?????? OUCH!!! I just did my waterpump, and timing belt while i was there, for $626. That included a new roller a few other lil parts too. There's the difference between the S2 and NA in cost, didn't think it was that much.

[jetmax]

Sorry, I had the rollers, waterpump and timing belt done for $1,900. I live in the D.C. area so labor charge may be a bit more. Porsche rates the timing belt/water punp at 11hrs of labor.
John

[Bob's944]

your mechanic is not nice, mine (specializes in porsche and has a porsche race team) charged me 6 hrs labor. find a better mechanic

[EugeneYu]

924S and 944S2 are your options.

I used to have both 87 924S and 90 944S2 at the same time. Just sold my 924S about a week ago.
924S is really a great car. I like it alot. It handles great and looks nice too. On the highway, it feels more stable than my S2. With that amount of money, it hard to get any other solid car like 924S plus a brand name. I personally like the 924S' shape. It looks simple and closer to authentic, old style sport car. If ever 944 can be a collector car in the future, the 924S could be the first. I'm just guessing.

944S2 is a great car too. It has the power you will like. Some other features I like are ABS, dual air bag, climate control, LSD? and bigger tires. It also has fancier interior.

Both of them are not too hard to maintain. I just did timing belt and rollers by myself. I found S2 has more room in the front engine. Do not need to take out radiator etc. S2 parts do cost more, but not too bad. Only 20 to 30 per cent more maybe.

If you are new to Porsche, I would suggest 924S. It costs much much less to get into.

Eugene

[EugeneYu]

In 11 hours, they can teach a guy knows nothing about timing belt/waterpump to get the job done.

[dk944s2]

I don't think that maintenance on an S2 is going to be all that much more than a 944 na or a 951. True, the heads are rare and expensive, but failures are traceable to poor maintenance. Do the cam & balance-shaft belts and rollers every 45K, water pump at every other cam belt change, and the cam chain tensioner every 100K. Compared with a Turbo, there's a lot less stuff in an S2's engine compartment, so access to what you're working on is better. Aspro cars have lower underhood temps, so hoses last longer, and a full 944 re-hose is $$$$$! And a clutch job will be cheaper and less involved than a Turbo's, as you don't have to remove all the low-side turbo plumbing to drop the torque tube. Remember that Porsches in general are on the pricey side to maintain...but worth every Pfennig!

An S2 is a good choice for good power without modification, especially if smog legality is an issue (I'm from CA, and it is). I like the ABS for autocrossing...it's got a pretty high threshold of actuation, and since I auto-x and drive on the street with the same tires, it save me from the embarrassing flat spot when I try to brake TOO deep! Do love the big Turbo brakes. The car has a very firm brake pedal. Don't like pedal spacing for heel-and-toe (too large a gap between brake and throttle for my narrow feet), but that'll be fixed with a wider aluminum pedal.

Good luck in your search! Whatever car you buy, take your time and be willing to pay a little more for a clean, well-maintained car.

[Blackfoot]

there is no better porsche value than a 951. in fact, i'd go so far as to say that i can't think of any car that's as good of a value as a 951.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by dk944s2:
... Don't like pedal spacing for heel-and-toe (too large a gap between brake and throttle for my narrow feet), but that'll be fixed with a wider aluminum pedal.

That's how I feel about the pedal placement. Have you done any research on which aluminum pedal is best for this?

Thanks,
-Zoltan.



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My toy: http://www.pelicanparts.com/gallery/Z-man

[stupenal]

I'm glad to see everyone respond. Even though i just registered, i've been reading most of the posts here and the faq too. Currently, i have around 5k to spend and I'm not mechanically inclined, though i would very much like to be. To save on maintenance, the 944 will be a weekend car for me and just a cruise mobile at night. I have my trusty 89 camry to abuse. Maintenance on 89 camry...just oil changes!

Anyways, the 924S, although the same engine and drivetrain as the 944, personally looks like a weanie mobile. No offense, but i just dont dig the lack of fenders in the front. I agree with blackfoot that the 951 is DEFINITELY the best bang for the buck, but the insurance on a turbo, no less a porsche, will kill me. AS for all the upgrades and mods available, i'm not buying these cars for speed. Hell, if i wanted speed, i'd just rice up some honda (seems like if you're an asian teenager, you HAVE to have a riced up car).

Someone at rennlist commented that prices were generally very negotiable because there aren't that many buyers interested in buying a 944 these days. Is that true? If so, i'll know i have that behind my back when i go to bargain. More opinions based on own experience would be much appreciated! Now back to work....ugh...wasting my summer away working for this car...bleh. But the rewards are well worth it!

[scottewid]

With prices, my experience is that the 951s are only negotiable when the seller has grossly overpriced for the condition of the car and knows it. Other than that, it's pretty much a seller's market when it comes to 951s, I guess due to the relative scarcity and desirability of the car. When I was shopping for mine, I didn't even get a chance to look at two because they were sold the same day advertised. The one I did buy, I only got because I was the first one to show up. By the time I got there, the seller had another guy scheduled one hour after me and while we were out test driving it, he got two messages of people wanting to come immediately to check it out.

Non-turbos are more common so you probably have more wiggle room there.

[scottewid]

Forgot to add: definitely go with the 951 if you can swing it.

Seems almost all n/a'ers eventually feel the 143hp mill just doesn't cut it and start lusting for more power...myself included.

[dk944s2]

Hey Zoltan,
Nice car! What kind of wheels do you have? Cup 2's? Pictures are kinda small, so I couldn't tell for sure.

About the throttle pedal: I'm making my own out of 1/8-in. aluminum plate, and I'll attach it with a combination of 3M weatherstrip adhesive ("gorilla snot" in less formal circles) and about six countersunk, self-tapping screws that I can thread right into the original plastic pedal, after I've made som pilot holes.

The shape is almost perfectly rectangular (though top and bottom are angled slightly to match the stock pedal's "tilt" toward the center tunnel). As you know, the stocker really tapers to a fine point near the top, so the rectangular piece will extend that critical extra half-inch toward the brake pedal and make heel/toe a snap.

While I can just barely heel/toe now, I feel that just the very edge of my shoe is on the brake. With the mod, I'll be able to do it virtually without thinking, freeing up brain cells to fine-tune the braking point, hit my apex, etc.

Hope this helps.

--Doug