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-   -   more info on K&N FILTERS (bad news) (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/159800-more-info-k-n-filters-bad-news.html)

MrPants 04-24-2004 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FR Wilk
I hear those little throttle cams are bad and can cause cancer. :confused:
They should put a warning on those! I been smoking throttle cams since i was twelve. How was i supposed to know they caused cancer?

..P 04-24-2004 06:39 AM

Hi guys,

I come to this forum as an informed and experienced enthusiast. I got my first sports car in 1969. It was an Alfa Guilia Spyder.

I then went on to Triumphs, TVR, Volvo, and a variety of Porsches, including a few American cars, and numerous boats. I presently own 4 (four) 427 Ford big blocks, two of which are in a 38' Chris Craft which I maintain and run. I drive to the club in one of my three Porsches.

I was asked to speak in Ohio last week at a symposium, the subject was motors.

I have high regard for "my own opinion" but I pride myself in being able to learn when discussing subject matter with QUALIFIED individuals who base their advice on good information. Information like the kind that comes from Wally and Dave at 928 Specialists is what I consider to be good, Wally by the way, is an ex NASA engineer. With all the other tests done, and I can reference them to you if you want to see them, any argument on the issue of the K&N just shows how arrogant and really "uninformed" people really are, and how even those arrogant and uninformed people are still so proud of their lack of REAL knowledge, that they are STILL willing to argue the point.

It makes me laugh

It's your car, your money, and your choice.

Anyone using a K&N after reading all the good cautionary info out there is an idiot, especially when those things cost money and do absolutely nothing for you in the way of performance. Put one in a cone where it can such hot air from behind the radiator, and it will do even less.

The particles are small by the way. Small abrasive particles of silica, running down the rings, grinding into smaller particles, getting into the oil stream, grinding against cam lobes and bearing surfaces.

Some people say they've done it for years. I say "too bad". Some people say they didn't see any abnormal wear, well, its not the kind of thing you can see, because you need a micrometer to really "see" the damage



your car, your money, your choiceSmileWavy SmileWavy SmileWavy

P

ae1969 04-24-2004 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ..P
.....I have high regard for "my own opinion" but I pride myself in being able to learn when discussing subject matter with QUALIFIED individuals who base their advice on good information. Information like the kind that comes from Wally and Dave at 928 Specialists is what I consider to be good, Wally by the way, is an ex NASA engineer. ....

Uhmmm so the GT3 cup cars that used them and Rally cars running the european circuit. The engineering teams and mechanics on those crews are a bunch of idiots according to your opinion?

I am not going to get into arguments over your opinion, because thats what it is, but the minute you start calling people idiots for using a product you obviously are no expert at..... you better take a second look at what you say.

My opinions on the subject are simple.

1. On a stock car the performance gained is 0 to none.

2. On a modified car where a stock box will obviously not fit there is no better option than K&N.

If you agree thats nice... if you dont....it doesnt matter either.

If you think posting on this subject is gonna save one poor soul as if you were on some religious quest............ then I think my friend you found the real idiot. SmileWavy

ae1969 04-24-2004 08:05 AM

This is coincidence....

Danno from guru just posted this today over on rennlist, definitely not a guy that would spout out numbers.......... but someone I guess you could call an expert on these cars.....

"Are there any replaceable cone filters on the market that would fit a MAP/MAF?"

"So, is there an alternative to k&n for mafs/maps besides routing throught the stock box? "

Our Stealth MAP-1 system uses the stock air-box for that stock look without the restrictions of the AFM. Then you can use the stock paper filters if you'd like. The difference is about -10hp vs. a K&N panel filter for the stock air-box (not K&N's 15hp claim). If you've still got the stock AFM in place, don't bother with a K&N cone-filter adaptor, you won't gain anything.

scottmandue 04-24-2004 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ae1969


I am not going to get into arguments over your opinion, because thats what it is, but the minute you start calling people idiots for using a product you obviously are no expert at..... you better take a second look at what you say.


Exactly what I was thinking..
Damn I siding with the Canadians!

..p , I have no doubt you have a wealth of mechanical knowledge but resorting to name calling only dilutes you statement.

It would be interesting to see someone do the grease test on a stock air filter for comparison. Hmmm actual scirentific data... what a thought!

bryanthompson 04-24-2004 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrPants
They should put a warning on those! I been smoking throttle cams since i was twelve. How was i supposed to know they caused cancer?
it's all part of their clever marketing scheme, but rest assured; according to the WHO, second hand throttle cam exposure will not cause cancer. All these anti-throttle-cam activists will try to force their propaganda down your throat, but stay strong. :D

ronin 04-24-2004 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ae1969

If you agree thats nice... if you dont....it doesnt matter either.

If you think posting on this subject is gonna save one poor soul as if you were on some religious quest............ then I think my friend you found the real idiot. SmileWavy

:D

early_944 04-24-2004 11:02 AM

.pp writes...Put one in a cone where it can such hot air from behind the radiator, and it will do even less....

Shouldn't there be a way to tune the car to run with the temperature of air coming through the radiator? Mack trucks have used that design, the advantage is the constant air temperature. Due to variable temperatures of outside air it makes it harder to calculate the density.

I'm not so sure that you can't accept the use of warm air and tweak the car from there

MrPants 04-24-2004 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by early_944
.pp writes...Put one in a cone where it can such hot air from behind the radiator, and it will do even less....

Shouldn't there be a way to tune the car to run with the temperature of air coming through the radiator? Mack trucks have used that design, the advantage is the constant air temperature. Due to variable temperatures of outside air it makes it harder to calculate the density.

I'm not so sure that you can't accept the use of warm air and tweak the car from there

With diesel engines having cold air isnt as beneficial since they rely on detonation. So i think there are other factors in that case (aside from the constant temperature thing).

unclebilly 04-24-2004 08:59 PM

You can tune your car to run on warm air, but it will always run better on denser, cold air. The idea is that you want to get as many O2 molecules in these as possible so dense, cool air is your friend, unless you want to run some sort of boost or notrous...

You car will also run better at sea level for this reason, denser air. Ever wonder why NHRA drag times ar corrected to sea level?

fast924S 04-25-2004 10:30 AM

just use nitrous, 30% more usable Oxygen then regular AIR

..P 04-25-2004 03:47 PM

This world has an inexaustible supply of idiots, no need for me to go looking for one. The world is also full of people enamored with their own opinion, and navel, and other parts of their anatomy for that matter. The world is full of people so enamored with their own opinion, that the will actually argue a point that will potentially put others at risk.

I am not doing that. I am trying to keep others from risk.

The argument about the Cup cars, is a joke. They are running a budget that allows the motor to be exchanged, or rebuilt after each race. Those motors are also putting out more than stock power. I am commenting on a stock auto, using a filter that admits more than an acceptable amount of silica powder, causing damage, and creating not one measely gain in power ON A STOCK AUTOMOBILE.

You guys out there with the opinions contrary to Porsche engineering, or on the sales staff of a parts house selling this crap, are on the wrong side of the argument. Anyone reading this needs to questiion the motives here. I bought two K&N filters, and I've pulled them, and would normally GIVE THEM to anyone who wants them, but no, I'm burning them because I am not going to be a part of having some poor guy cause damage to his car.

There is a matter of ethics here, and also the matter of being able to see and recognize good information, even though someone is enamored with their own opinion.

It's your car, your money, and your opinion.

P

ae1969 04-25-2004 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ..P
....................You guys out there with the opinions contrary to Porsche engineering, or on the sales staff of a parts house selling this crap, are on the wrong side of the argument. Anyone reading this needs to questiion the motives here. I bought two K&N filters, and I've pulled them, and would normally GIVE THEM to anyone who wants them, but no, I'm burning them because I am not going to be a part of having some poor guy cause damage to his car.......There is a matter of ethics here, and also the matter of being able to see and recognize good information, even though someone is enamored with their own opinion...........
:eek:

You even have a conspiracy theory going here........

??? the cup cars a dumb argument? You are kidding right? Yes I threw that in as bait ............ to hear your reply of how Porsche engineers love to swap their engines every hour...........

Now the question you have to ask yourself after posting your original post............AM I POSTING FACTS.

ASK YOURSELF...........with the self-proclaimed expert that YOU posted.............. WHY WOULD PORSCHE run endurance races with a item that would cause their engines to loose performance over the course of race (as high as 30% leakdown loss). This is from the 'FACTS' you are throwing around???

To tell you the truth I am in an industry that lives on facts. Facts not based on here-say and anecdotes...... I have no reason to promote or tarnish the name of K&N whatsoever ..... I work in an industry as far as it could possibly be from motorsports...... So sorry to tell you there are no k&N agents monitoring all the bulleti boards of the internet waiting to take up the cause for K&N.

But I do take exception to being called an idiot by a self proclaimed leader of the K&N bashing cause......

YES we agree that K&N probably has no place on a stock engine..... and unless you have some well thought out documented facts stop with the bible thumping..... We know where you stand.

That reminds me.... I have to go and oil my filter..... and take the gravel out of my intercooler as well.... :D

SmileWavy

fast924S 04-25-2004 08:54 PM

http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/boxen.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/ar15.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/2ar15.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/uzi.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/mgwhore.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/...shockwhore.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/rlwhore.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/dead.gif http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/bullet.gif

THE FIGHTS ON!!!! HEHEHEHEH

Dantilla 04-26-2004 08:35 AM

Cool! a bonfire! Let's burn all the K&N filters some evening. We can chant "long live paper! Long live paper!" deep into the night, and then sing Cum-bi-ya at sunrise.

unclebilly 04-26-2004 09:44 AM

Cum-bi-yah at sunrise... LMAO! ROTFL!

jimbilly 04-26-2004 10:05 AM

I had a K&N in my '86 951 from probably '98 until when I sold it in the spring of '02. I put only 15k miles +- on it in that period of time. Those miles had a lot of auto-xs and a fair number of lapping events. I always kept the filter clean and lubed (plus very regular oil and filter changes w/ mobil1). When I sold the car (w/ 132K miles on it), we had a leak down test done, all cylinders were well under 10% (two as low as 6% IIRC), the mechanic was quite surprised that a car with that many miles showed so little wear. & it was still as fast as anybodys stock 951.
I'm still a bit wary of K&Ns, but I don't think that using one means you're destroying your engine (and I doubt that they're really good for any increased performance). -Then there's the scirocco I put well over 100kmiles on w/ a K&N; it used very little oil and had good power w/ over 340k miles (never had the head off that motor). I'm convinced that that motor still has a lot of life in it, I may just freshen up the bottom end and put it in the current daily driver.
Maybe the answer is to convert to those old-school oil-bath air filters, you know?, the ones that kept the cop cars running in the Mt St Helens volcanic dust of '80.
(sorry if this posted twice, I had some tech difficultites w/ submitting it)

tobster1911 04-26-2004 10:37 AM

I just love these long drawn out string of opinions. It make me want to join the argument. Personally I think everyone should qualify what they say with prove of credibilty. It would make things much easier. Things like "I have worked on car for XX years" does not really cut it. I have seen people do things just because they have always done it that way based on that idea.

The only thing I can correct on this is the statement on "magnetic" being the same as "static electricity". Qualify by saying that I am an electrical engineer by day and car/truck/motorcycle nut by night. Magnetic field is not at all the same as static electricity. Static electricity is stored charge....like a capacitor. It is possible to generate magnetic field by using an electric current and visa vera but they are two separate things.

That said I have a question that has been bugging me since I bought my Porsche and started reading this board. Why does everyone seem to think that you can not improve on the design of this car? The only reason given is that the German engineered (are there different physics in Germany?) is the best ever. Don't try and do anything differnent because if there was a better way they would have done it. Question...Do you think that they spent all of their engineering resources to do the absolute best design on thier lowest end car? I have worked with a lot of German engineers and they work the same as the rest of us. They do the best they can in the time they have. Also a car company is in the business of making money. They design some of this stuff for manufacturing not performance. Engineering is a trade off between different goals.

Last venting and I will quit. I have hear it stated that these cars are the most reliable cars they are designed so much better than the American built vehicles. If this is so why are there so very many posts on here about the cars falling apart? As for better design....I have yet to see my Chevy ruin the top end because of a rubber timing belt. My roommate has a Ford with 280K original miles on it. Tell me again how terrible American cars are? The point is any vehicle that is take care of will be reliable for well over 200K....neglect it and it will break.

Ok I am done. Don't get me wrong I like this Porsche....even with the problems I have had. The problems stem from neglect before I got the car. I just don't like the exclusive...snobbish....non-porsche....stock is best bashing that goes on here.

Sabyre 04-26-2004 11:54 AM

I think maybe you have to be a "true" enthusiest to fully understand the passion behind the attitude. Personally I'm with you. These heated discussions go a bit far and all to many times end up in name calling and flaming. I am not a fan of the "my ***** don't stink" and "I know everything so shutup" metality. I also agree with proving credibility when you make a claim. As to this particular topic I will side with the "stock" guys. The K&N's are simply not worth it $ for $.

As for improving upon the German engineered lowest end car, your right, it is possible. Possible but not practicle. To really acheive great gains in performance you would have to make radical changes and they would require deep pockets. IMHO if you go that far you are NOT a Porsche enthusiest.

The 944 is the car that saved Porsche. It was engineered to be affordable (as far as Porsches go), relyable, and offer some performance. I think they made a great car. It may not blow your hair back but it will wow you in the corners.

There is something special about the way a Porche feels, sounds, and drives. There is definate prestige that comes with owning a Porsche. Most owners understand this. Those that don't are the snobs and asses.

Remember Porsche is an exclusive auto maker. What I mean by that is their main operation is to produce highly engineered, crafted, works of art. Thats what Porsche is about. The doc had a vision and it was a great one. They dont build escorts and cavilaleers.

Ultimatley they will break down. These cars are mechanical just like american cars. They can and do give into that fundemental property called friction. Maintanence is criticle.

Do you hunger?

MrPants 04-26-2004 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tobster1911
That said I have a question that has been bugging me since I bought my Porsche and started reading this board. Why does everyone seem to think that you can not improve on the design of this car? The only reason given is that the German engineered (are there different physics in Germany?) is the best ever. Don't try and do anything differnent because if there was a better way they would have done it. Question...Do you think that they spent all of their engineering resources to do the absolute best design on thier lowest end car? I have worked with a lot of German engineers and they work the same as the rest of us. They do the best they can in the time they have. Also a car company is in the business of making money. They design some of this stuff for manufacturing not performance. Engineering is a trade off between different goals.

Ok I am done. Don't get me wrong I like this Porsche....even with the problems I have had. The problems stem from neglect before I got the car. I just don't like the exclusive...snobbish....non-porsche....stock is best bashing that goes on here.

You make some good points.
For me personally, I dont say that its impossible to improve these cars. I simply say that the car cant be improved on by me. I dont know as much about this car as the people who designed it.
Also, I consider myself a Porsche enthusist. I want my car to be completely stock. That might not be best for 'performace' (although most of the time it is) but id rather have a slow Porsche than a fast porschenstein.

Here is some data from independant labs that tested K&N filters
http://www.knfilters.com/images/factstab1.gif
http://www.knfilters.com/images/factstab2.gif
I'm not sure what that means. Under dust it says 375. 375 what? i dont know. kg of dust maybe ;)


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