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-   -   more info on K&N FILTERS (bad news) (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/159800-more-info-k-n-filters-bad-news.html)

..P 04-26-2004 05:31 PM

For the price of a 20-year old 944, you too can be an expert on this forum. Many of the people parading around here as "Porsche experts" don't even know it's a two syllable word.

What appears obvious to me after seeing the arrogance of some of the replies on this thread, that any kid with enough cash to buy an old 944, who has gotten into one of the parts supply catalogs, is an expert. If you don't know for sure, just ask him.

He'll gladly argue the merits of the K&N air filter. Come on guys, how many times will you step on your own appendages?

ROTFLMAO

P

jimbilly 04-26-2004 05:41 PM

"Porsche experts" is a two syllable word? ;)

fast924S 04-26-2004 07:35 PM

I say to each his own, If you want it stock then keep it that way, If you want something different then do it, Your car, Your time, Your money. I dont think anyone on this board knows everything there is to know about Porsche, Thats why this forum is soo good when we act as a team and learn from others and help others, infact I dont car if you have a Porsche or not, I love cars.. All kinds, If you where stopped on the side of the road with the hood up in a 1987 F150 I would stop and see if I can help thats what car guys do. I think it is very sad that some people here are too FULL of them selfs or cocky just because they own a Porsche. I my self will always be the type of person to try to make the car a better performer German or not, its fun, and I like it, As for the stock guys, Im happy you guys wants to keep it stock. I would never treat anyone any different until they treated me different, Its all just stupid, there are so many others things to be doing.

Just my 5 cents

AFJuvat 04-26-2004 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tobster1911
That said I have a question that has been bugging me since I bought my Porsche and started reading this board. Why does everyone seem to think that you can not improve on the design of this car?... Also a car company is in the business of making money. They design some of this stuff for manufacturing not performance. Engineering is a trade off between different goals. ...

Ok I am done. Don't get me wrong I like this Porsche....even with the problems I have had. The problems stem from neglect before I got the car. I just don't like the exclusive...snobbish....non-porsche....stock is best bashing that goes on here.



That was actually a very well put point and you are spot on when it comes to engineering.

Though I cannot speak for other responses, My usual comment has not been one of "you can't do anything with it" On the contrary, you can.

Please don't interpret this as a flame.

Crate up your engine and send it to me, along with a check for around $7000 and I will build you a high 200 - low 300HP 944.

It most certainly can be done, but the question is, "is it economically viable?" "does it make sense?" and "could I spend this money better?'

Viable - If you have real deep pockets, sure - in the end, you are going to have a $5000 944 with $7000 in engine work and grossly inadequate brakes and suspension.

Make sense? - again, only if you have realy deep pockets

Spend it better - most definately - as has been repeated here, by the time you spend the cash for the car and the mods, you could have bought a faster car to begin with.

Maybe not so much "snobbery" but maybe perhaps more of "trying to save you from yourself?"

My qualifications?

Former employee (test garage) of Dr. Ing H. C. F. Porsche AG through its affiliate Prosche Cars North America under the auspices of (at the time) Volkswagen of America

Full time Porsche mechanic - about 11 years experience - part time and full time (did a stint with the USAF and as a network engineer in all of those years)

Concerning K&N filters. Having torn down several motors both with and without K&N filters, I have not seen any of the drastic engine damage as described. where you can point the finger at the air filter and\or dirt\dust as causing engine failure

Will K&N boost horsepower? You may get a couple of HP - any gains are wasted with the flapper box and the stock exhaust. With the exception of FRWilks chip, most "bolt-on"\plug-in performance mods are hopelessly overrated IMHO.

K&N will change the way your engine sounds though.

Ok, I'm done

AFJuvat

Moneyguy1 04-26-2004 09:18 PM

AF: Why would you say the NA brakes and suspension would be grossly inadequate for, say, 275HP? I am curious since, from the standpoint of swept area, heat dissipation etc, they are far better than most other so-called performance cars.

Am I wrong in my thinking?

And,I have to marvel at a "entry level" vehicle that has inherent problems with a proven technology like fabric timing belts and developed a clutch replacement that requires practically a complete teardown of the rear suspension just to get to the clutch.I do agree that the car can be improved, many of the improvements can be done that will make the car more reliable in light of its age: rewiring of critical parts, replacement of broken/brittle connectors, things like that. And I agree that the engine basic design could have profited from a little more thinking and a bit less cost cutting. I have said it before; I am a fanatic when it comes to maintenance (currently both bumpers, air dam, all lights and trim are removed and individually being stripped bare and refinished to cure "road rash")but I will not drive the car more than 100 miles from home, the limit of my Auto Club free towing benefit.

I trust the 944 far less although it is a far more "modern" design than I trusted either my 356C or my 912 from years back. Those were as reliable as an anvil.

AFJuvat 04-26-2004 09:33 PM

I should have qualified my statement about the brakes with a "IMO"

The stock brakes were only used on the NA - even the 86 turbos had slightly larger brake pads. With the turbo S (250HP) they went to the 4 piston aluminum calipers

I believe that the stock NA brakes are inadequate for stopping a car much over 220 HP safely, reliably, and consistantly. But then again, as you all know, I tend to be conservative.

Most 944NA had boge struts and shocks - inadequate for high performance\high speed in the 250 HP+

Won't debate you at all on the clutch - it is one of the few jobs that is easier on a 928. DOn't agree with your concern about the belts to the level that you take it - if the maintenance is up to date the belts rarely fail out of the blue you can almost always point to a cause such as oil contamination, roller\tensioner failure etc.

AFJuvat

URIN 2ND 04-26-2004 11:10 PM

Quote:

with so much information being posted by people who know what they're talking about, how come there are so many kids out there still buying this crap.
Simple.

For every naysayer you can come up with, there are 25 other people who ALSO know what they are talking about who disagree, and think they work just fine.

I'm one of them. ;)

Sabyre 04-27-2004 07:25 AM

Does the HP really determin how good the brakes should be? Granted the faster you go the more premium stopping power you should have. I guess what I'm asking is wouldn't the weight of the vehicle be the determining factor? Heavier vehicle bigger brakes. Using the HP to judge brake size? Maybe if your accelerating while braking.

I just curious how HP becomes a factor.

serge944 04-27-2004 08:36 AM

Basically, if you dont think and floor it in traffic, will you be able to stop in time before hitting the car in front of you? If driven right, the original brakes would be fine even with extra HP...unless you want to track the car, but thats a whole nother issue.

My 2 cents.

ronin 04-27-2004 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimbilly
"Porsche experts" is a two syllable word? ;)
no, he was saying that most of these so-called "Porsche experts" (i.e. people with enough cash to buy a 20 y.o. car) don't even know that Porsche is a two syllable word


hey Sabby, as a matter of fact, my ***** doesn't stink and I do know everything! so there! :p :D

URIN 2ND 04-27-2004 11:52 AM

My shiot tastes like candy and smells like roses. SmileWavy

Sabyre 04-27-2004 12:05 PM

Quote:

hey Sabby, as a matter of fact, my ***** doesn't stink and I do know everything! so there!
Hey ass captain, who had to walk you through virus removal this weekend? :)

unclebilly 04-27-2004 12:08 PM

"Does the HP really determin how good the brakes should be? Granted the faster you go the more premium stopping power you should have. I guess what I'm asking is wouldn't the weight of the vehicle be the determining factor? Heavier vehicle bigger brakes. Using the HP to judge brake size? Maybe if your accelerating while braking.

I just curious how HP becomes a factor."

Your brakes dissipate energy. Basically, they take mechanical energy (.5mv2) and turn it into heat. So speed and mass of the vehicle dictate the size of brakes needed. Velocity squared so speed has more of an effect than the mass of the vehicle. Basically it takes x amount of HP to get whatever weight your car is up to a given speed in a given amount of time.

Sabyre 04-27-2004 12:31 PM

So it's not necissarily HP that determins it. It's more like how you would drive your car. Obviously in track conditions you would want a performer. Or if you plan on doing 150 MPH constantly.

I guess I was thinking that rigs (tracktor trailer trucks) have enormous brakes. Not to mention they have several different kinds. They dont really travel all that fast.

I was also thinking if you had two objects on a hill, one was 10LBS and the other was 100LBS. If you rolled the 10 pounder down to some poor shmuck to catch and then rolled the 100 pounder down at the same speed. The shmuck will be jumping out of the way for the 100. But I guess that is a bit different.

Moneyguy1 04-27-2004 12:47 PM

I dunno......It seems to me that stopping a 500HP car from 60 mph takes the same amount of "force" as stopping a similar massed car with only 150 HP. In my days of dirt tracking it was a function of how often you braked in a specified period of time that dictated the need for larger dissipation capability.

As much as I hate to say it re: fabric timing belts. I have seen failures on recently installed (properly installed) belts. It is, admittedly, rare, but it does happen and depending on the internal configuration of the engine, results in either a minor inconvenience or a major PITA. I had a 924 that dropped a belt one night at about 11:00 PM. I pushed the car to a lighted parking lot, got out my "spare" and with a flashlight and hand tools was on my way in an hour. No biggie. BTW..the problem was actually not with the belt, it was wear on the crank "cog wheel" teeth due to the fact that the lower pan was missing (sand and grit). I had a receipt from the PO that the belt had recently been changed, but the wear on the cog tore it apart in about 1500 miles. So, I installed new "gears"; no more problem; had the car for nine years. (changed the belt every four just to be safe). BTW...didn't need a P9201 to do it.

Makis 04-27-2004 01:16 PM

More power means better brakes and this is a fact. Imagine you going down some contry lanes and you need to brake hard before a corner. If you come in at the same speed as a less powerful car, sure you don't need the better brakes. But with much more power you will approach the corner usually with much more speed hence you will need to be able to stop better, hence better brakes will be required.

lousailor 04-27-2004 01:41 PM

Uncle Billy has the braking issue right. When Porsche upgraded their engines with more HP (Turbos, 16v, etc.) they upgraded the brakes to balance stopping torque with the new acceleration potentials. Put it this way, if a car can accelerate faster over a fixed distance it needs to slow down quicker to come to a stop over the same fixed distance but starting at a higher speed. In the end it's all about balancing accelerating and decelerating torque.

Moneyguy1 04-27-2004 01:43 PM

More HP does not necessarily mean more speed in "normal" driving. And , I dare say, the NA is capable of road speeds that would be considered suicidal. So, with a higher available HP, what would THOSE speeds be considered? <G>.

Sorry, guys. I can't buy the argument that beyond a certain HP range, for street use bigger brakes are necessarily better. Any braking system capable of locking up wheels reduces effectiveness. For the track, OK, since use is increased for the same period of time, creating more heat. Bigger rotors, calipers, etc. add to unsprung weight (not a desirable thing). Is there data available showing any difference in 60 - 0 stopping times NA vs> turbo? How many repeats until fade reduces effectiveness? I might change my mind......

The brakes are the most POWERFUL system on your car...they can stop it in less time than it took to get to the speed you were going.

Cheers!!

unclebilly 04-27-2004 01:55 PM

Money guy is right, that's why all the performance cars come with 4 wheel drums... you don't need bigger brakes on high power cars, that's what the ditch is for...

lousailor 04-27-2004 02:04 PM

Ha Uncle...

No No Moneyguy. In most cases car companies are required to show braking specs to match the available acceleration specs. Most cars advertise a 0-60 time. They are also supposed to meet a braking distance requirement. What drives bigger brakes on cars with more HP is the distance involved. i.e. the test is for max acceleration for 1/8 mile, then max braking. Well more HP means a higher top speed after 1/8 mile, then you need more stopping power to slow the car in the same distance as a slower car.


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