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Cam towers

I'm swapping my n/a head for a 951 head as part of my Callaway turbo conversion project; I have been told that the n/a cam is actually more desirable by 951 owners because it allows more flow and higher power. Can anyone verify this? I can get a 951 cam tower for cheap, which I suspect would be more desirable to work with the 951 head, but if the n/a cam tower / cam is going to work better, could I just put the n/a tower on the 951 head?

Crazy, I know. . .

Also, are the lifters the same? The guy who wants to sell me the 951 cam tower says it doesn't have the lifters so I'm wondering if I can transplant mine from the n/a cam tower, if I go that route.

Thanks.
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Old 08-01-2004, 10:50 PM
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Not sure about the difference in cams but one word of advice
never reuse old lifters on a different cam, they will destroy the cam in no time and if you use them on the same cam, make sure they go back on the same cam lobe they came off of. If possible you should always use new lifters.
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Old 08-02-2004, 04:29 AM
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Good to know. I suppose new lifters are inexpensive enough (everything else on this car considered). I've read that before also, but was always unsure as to why? I've heard the same thing about pistons too; is there really that much difference between them?
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Old 08-02-2004, 06:35 AM
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When a lifter rides on a camshaft lobe , it develops a very distinct wear pattern on that cam /lifter combo. both the lifter and cam lobe are made out of materials of different hardness. so once the wear pattern sets in. they will work together. if that lifter is put on a different lobe it will tear up that lobe. But a new lifter has a nice flat surface on it so it wont damage the existing cam lobe.
also some camshaft lobes are ground with a slight bevel on them to rotate the lifter so it develops an even wear pattern on the lifter.
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Old 08-02-2004, 06:58 AM
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From what I gather the early N/A camshaft is the same as the 951's,
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Old 08-02-2004, 10:45 AM
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Also , how is the the Callaway kit? I haven't heard from you in a while?
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Old 08-02-2004, 10:46 AM
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Hey,

Yea it's going okay. The car is in the garage up on jackstands now and probably will be for at least another 2-3 months in conjunction with this conversion. I've got all the parts cleaned up and POR-20ed (the rusty parts, anyway).

The major holdup right now is money; I have everything I need as far as the oil pan gasket, new pistons (951 ones), etc. but I need piston rings, rod bearings, the raceware stud and rod bolt kit before I justify cracking the bottom end open and pulling it apart. Also I'm planning on adding a Lindsey 3-piece crossmember (so I don't have to go through such a living hell again just to get the oil pan off), the Lindsey "super mounts" (might as well replace the engine mounts while I'm there), the Lindsey turbo after-oiler, and an oil cooler. Once I can get all that stuff (probably about 3 months to get all the $$$ together) I'll call in the troops and we'll put it all together. Mostly I've just been taking stuff apart now and labeling it, stuff like that - prep work.

I hope to have a web site up soon with the status of it; I've been taking pictures as I go. . .
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Old 08-02-2004, 01:21 PM
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Any pics available of the progress....?
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Old 08-02-2004, 01:46 PM
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Yea, I'll post a few when I get home tonight or as soon as I can; that'll motivate me to get off my butt and put the pics together for the web site too. . .
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Old 08-02-2004, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile

and an oil cooler.
I just happen to have an extra 951 oil cooler with hoses and housing if thats what you need.....
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Old 08-02-2004, 07:41 PM
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Crippler is right........... the early cam has the same specs as the turbo.

And has been mentioned don't mix and match hydraulic lifters...

Also no 'real' advantage in using a 951 camshaft tower/camshaft....

Use your NA camshaft........... keep the NA head. If you want to get some work done on the NA head to try and get more flow out of it go ahead.......

IMO .... stay with the stock studs unless you are planning on pulling the head every couple of weeks or you will be running some crazy boost >15 psi...... Stock studs work very well although they are supposed to be single use...
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Old 08-02-2004, 08:45 PM
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So no advantage to raceware studs then? What about for the connecting rod bolts?

I'm getting the 951 head since it's got the high-heat ceramic coating on it and sodium-filled exhaust valves. Some of the coating might need to be re-applied but I've been told that isn't a big deal; I'm also having Danno at Guru Racing do a fully-radiused valve job and full port & polish on it. He thinks this alone will be worth 20+ horsepower. AFIK all the holes are in the same place for the 951 head (anyone know otherwise?) and I asked Paragon about using the wide-fire head gasket setup with the n/a block and 951 head; he said it should be absolutely no problem.

The guy selling me the cam tower said pretty much the same thing - there's no difference (he even looked up part numbers). He also has a very good condition one from a '87 n/a that I might get instead. The reason is mine has a couple of minor problems with it and for the cost of replacement parts from a dealership (rear cam gear cover - mine has a "chunk" out of it, and distributor "collar" piece that goes in front of the cam gear retaining collar - mine is beat to hell, cam gear is kind banged up looking too) I can get an entire new (used) cam tower that's in good shape.

Take a look at Danno's Racer-X web site; that's where I got the information about the cams being slightly different.

http://members.rennlist.com/951_racerx/CamProfiles.pdf

Maybe for a later year (?) I'll have to ask him.

The oil cooler I'm thinking of is a Mocal one (from Lindsey racing). It was recommended by a guy in Illinois that also has a Callaway-converted 944; he runs it and absolutely loves it!

http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LR&Product_Code=951-KISS-OIL&Category_Code=944ENGINETRANSOILCOOLER

Hmmm. . . I'll have to post those pics later. . . Got to go to work and pay for all this dreamin' and schemin'!
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Old 08-03-2004, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
So no advantage to raceware studs then? What about for the connecting rod bolts?

I'm getting the 951 head since it's got the high-heat ceramic coating on it and sodium-filled exhaust valves. Some of the coating might need to be re-applied but I've been told that isn't a big deal; I'm also having Danno at Guru Racing do a fully-radiused valve job and full port & polish on it. He thinks this alone will be worth 20+ horsepower. AFIK all the holes are in the same place for the 951 head (anyone know otherwise?) and I asked Paragon about using the wide-fire head gasket setup with the n/a block and 951 head; he said it should be absolutely no problem.

The guy selling me the cam tower said pretty much the same thing - there's no difference (he even looked up part numbers). He also has a very good condition one from a '87 n/a that I might get instead. The reason is mine has a couple of minor problems with it and for the cost of replacement parts from a dealership (rear cam gear cover - mine has a "chunk" out of it, and distributor "collar" piece that goes in front of the cam gear retaining collar - mine is beat to hell, cam gear is kind banged up looking too) I can get an entire new (used) cam tower that's in good shape.

Take a look at Danno's Racer-X web site; that's where I got the information about the cams being slightly different.

http://members.rennlist.com/951_racerx/CamProfiles.pdf

Maybe for a later year (?) I'll have to ask him.

The oil cooler I'm thinking of is a Mocal one (from Lindsey racing). It was recommended by a guy in Illinois that also has a Callaway-converted 944; he runs it and absolutely loves it!

http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LR&Product_Code=951-KISS-OIL&Category_Code=944ENGINETRANSOILCOOLER

Hmmm. . . I'll have to post those pics later. . . Got to go to work and pay for all this dreamin' and schemin'!
Raceware studs have their place... but for a daily driver IMO. Overkill. Many racers use stock studs with no probs.

For the rods just replace the nuts. The studs do not normally fail. IMO replacing the rod studs is overkill as well. As I recall they are a little pricey as well.

A good combo would be to use the NA head with the sodium filled valves and have danno work up that NA head. He will be able to work the exhaust side as well.

Becarefull using a damaged ceramic sided turbo head. The last thing you want is a chunk of ceramic coming loose and toasting your turbo.

The head gaskets are interchangeable. Same patterns on the NA and turbo. The best thing you can do while you have it apart is get the block o-ringed and then use a wide fire. A guy uphere runs this with crazy boost (28psi) and it has held with no probs.

Should be a fun problem...... you are definitely thinking as you go. Good to see.
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Old 08-03-2004, 11:38 AM
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Thanks, I'm trying to. This stuff is interesting to me (obviously) but I don't want to end up doing stuff twice either. I'd rather be patient, spend the extra money (once) and not have to worry about it blowing up some morning on the way in to work. Porsche was able to make reliable 300+ h.p. engines; there's no reason with proper planning and care that I or anyone else can't do the same.

Good advice on the head too. I know there's a crack in the ceramic coating, but was told that it could be completely removed / reapplied. If not, I'll just do the n/a head and use sodium valves or I think Danno said there were nickel ones that are just as good, if not better.

This is probably a completely naive question but what's involved with "O-ringing" the block? What does that do exactly? Can it be done with the engine in the car? Pulling the engine out isn't an option unless I can get it to Danno's place or somewhere and do it there; I don't have the facilities to do it - everything else is being done with it where it is and I can probably get away with it in my garage space, but if I go rolling engine hoists in there, people are going to go bat**** and end up calling the cops or the landlord.

Any other suggestions?
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Old 08-03-2004, 12:01 PM
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you say that an early N/A cam is the same as a 951, but what about an 86 or 87 N/A cam?
Old 08-03-2004, 04:03 PM
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O ringing the block involves maching a groove around each cylinder on the block deck. Then a metal o-ring is inserted in the groove. its purpose is to aid cylinder sealing.Yes the engine needs to be out of the car and the block stripped. In a 944 engine there is no advantage to it. It is only beneficial in engines with extrmely high compression ratios, such as 12:1 and over. It wouldnt hurt but it would be a waste of time and money.
I wont o-ring a motor unless the comp ratio is over 12:5 or if is is a blower motor running very high boost.
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Last edited by VINMAN; 08-04-2004 at 05:08 AM..
Old 08-04-2004, 05:06 AM
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Well, I sort of have two options on the compression:

(1) I can leave my stock pistons in there (I think they're 9.1 or 9.2:1 - whatever standard n/a pistons are) and run maximum boost of 12-ish pounds.

(2) I can swap 951 8.0:1 pistons in there (I have a set already) and run higher boost.

In either case, I'm going to put the wide-fire head gasket in there; I think that's the "weak link" on any boosted engine.

Danno's recommendation was to leave the stock n/a pistons in there. He's doing this now on his car (it's a n/a engine converted over to a 951, think the engine is out of an '86). He says he's dialed up to 15 pounds boost and no problems, but I'm a little more skittish about that; I'm actually going to be depending on this car for work and getting around; It's mostly going to be a driver / show-off kind of car; I might make it to the track 4 or 5 times in a year if I'm lucky.

I was planning on swapping the pistons out since I have to go through the living hell of dropping the oil pan anyway, and was going to install new rings on them, as well as new bearings.

I suppose I COULD leave the stock pistons in there for now and just run the boost lower, but if I do that I want to do two other things - (1) make sure that the setup isn't going to melt anything / detonate my engine and (2) add the 3-piece crossmember first so if I DO end up needing to swap the pistons out later on, I can do so without having the car off the road for three months.

Any thoughts / comments?
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Old 08-04-2004, 06:00 AM
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