951 vs 944 NA with turbo thrown on?

[OzPorscheLover]

Hey everybody...just joined today so thought I'd make a post.

I'm an Aussie and in search of a 951. Round here 944 turbos go for about AUD $20 000 for a decent one. I realise there are differences with the 944 NA and 951 but what do you think about me buying a stock 944 and throwing in a turbo [Garrett maybe]...works out much cheaper. I can get a good 944 with belts done, low km's etc for $9 000 - $12 000.

What are your thoughts about difficulty to install, difference in performance and other differences between the two models?

Should I hold out for a 951 or go the 944 and save some money?

[Mark944na86]

951.

-Mark

[auh]

Bad question to ask here cause EVERYONE will say 951.

The biggest thing I can think of on this board that people say go for the 951 is that the NA has a weak transmission

[Lawrence Coppari]

Ditto what has been said.

[IceShark]

This has been gone over so many times, search here and on Rennlist for the threads - there will be a million of them.

Besides all the other upgrades a Turbo has like brakes, suspension, transaxle, clutch & bellhousing, etc. when you look at what it is going to cost you will throw up your hands pretty quick and get off the retro turbo idea.

The only somewhat cost effective solution would be to supercharge. That runs around $5,000 USD for the packages that have been put together. But you will still be missing all those other items the 951 has.

Which is why everyone rolls their eyes and says just get a 951.

[seaboltman]

all the money involved in upgrading a NA to a turbo, your better off just buying a turbo.

[Blackfoot]

If you do a careful search on the topic of putting a turbo into an n/a, you will find that certain turbos WILL fit in the glovebox.

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Cars

[Rmills944]

What's it worth to you? The turbo is faster, handles better, and looks a little better. Another choice would be an S2, but it's about the price of a turbo.

Personally, I like the speed and the power you can get out of the turbo - the Vitesse kits can get you around 400WHP. The turbo has a stronger transmission, torque tube, engine, and so much more. The S2 is a better choice than the N/A becuase of the power and transmission. It will cost more to fix a turbo or S2, but it's worth the money to me.

[Taz's Master]

Much of the discussion centers on price. Here in the states just going by a very casual following of prices you can get a 951 for $6,000 to $8,000 if you know what you're doing, what to look for and can do some work yourself. I think it would be pretty tough to buy a 944 and turbo it for less money than it costs to buy a 951 in the US. Then the 951 will have plenty of turbo equip (suspension, tranny, brakes...). If the 951 carries a tremendous premium in Australia, it may be financially advantageous to turbo a 944 where you are. It certainly isn't a case of "It can't be done", it is simply a case of "It isn't worth it" here. If you do bolt on a turbo, document your experience for us, there are plenty of people who would be interested in what you did, how you did it, how much it cost, and how the car runs.

[IceShark]

The problem with OZ is that they have a huge tax on imported cars. The idea being to promote some car manufacturer to build a plant in Australia. It drives the OZ guys nuts when they see how cheap cars are going for in the States.

[fast924S]

OZ, it can be done, but it will never meat the performance of the 951, Fisrt off you will need to do all the piping, intercooler, BOV, Then upgrade the fuel system, Then your gonna need a Stand alone engine managment system with a MAF or MAP because the stock ECU will not work with that type of upgrade, tehn you can only run very low boost since the CR is 9.5 to 1 on the NA, Also you will need to find a way to control the added heat, Then if you get it to work its time to do something about the NA tranny and clutch since they wont hold that kinda power for long.

You are better off doing a stage 2 SC kit with the 951 injectors

[OzPorscheLover]

Wow, seems like there are quite a few different opinions out there about this topic. As Taz's Master points out, there is a huge difference in price between the NA and turbo models over here...and the S2 does go for similar to a turbo [plus they are harder to come by in the first place.]

The general gist seems to be keep saving for a turbo. I knew there were differences between the two models but not to that extent. Seems pointless to put in so much work on an NA when I could go the turbo and still end up with a superior car. Better keep searching and saving lol.

Thanks for the info and reality check guys.

[DannoXYZ]

"tehn you can only run very low boost since the CR is 9.5 to 1 on the NA"

I guess it comes down to what you define as "low boost". I've taken my 951 with 944NA shortblock at 9.6:1 compression up to 25psi to get fuel & ignition calibrations. It's certainly possible. Just that everyone's been trying to do it with signal massagers which allows you to adjust fuel-only. People aren't even looking at the other half of tuning a car, that is getting optimum ignition maps as well. I've seen plenty of Hondas with 10.0;1 running 15-20psi boost with no problems. Again, the secret is being able to program proper ignition.

As for turbo-upgrading a 944, let's get down to the specfic nitty gritty actual implementation. If you're gonna be using a Garrett turbo, where are you getting the exhaust-plumbing? Custom headers go for about U$2500 here. Add U$1500 for a Garrett turbo. The add the following parts from the photo below at a mininum and you come up with:

$150-500 exhaust mid-section
$250-500 exhaust cat-back
$200 wastegate & CV
$100 turbo down-pipe
$250 intercooler
$150 intercooler pipes
$350 AFM & airbox & J-boot
$200 throtle-body, TPS and intake-manifold
$350 head
$150 harness
$500 DME & KLR computers
$2000 home-mechanic labor 100hrs @ 20/hr
$5000 professional-mechanic labor 50hrs @ 100/hr
$800 custom chips and dyno-tuning
---------------------
$9450-12350 TOTAL

About the same as the price differnce and you wont' get the better suspension or brakes. Be sure to add $1500 for a 951 tranny later when the NA tranny's toasted in less than 1-year...

I guess this exercise is taking a big-picture idea that sounds easy and when you break it down into the step-by-step procedrue, it turns out to be ludicrous. Kinda like achieving World Peace. You can say, "Well, let's just take the warring factions off the battlefield and talk over a cup of coffee and work out their differences through dialogue and mutual respect, simple". Then when actually try to implement something like that, you realize that it's a pipe dream...

The only way this project is gonna work is you say:
"I want to convert my 944 to turbo, no matter what it costs!"

and you can get it done. But it's not gonna happen if you say:
"I'm gonna convert my 944 to turbo because it's cheaper than buying a turbo"

nope... not gonna happen...

[OzPorscheLover]

Well I think that about answers my question. Pretty much zero point going the 944 with turbo approach as the "do it at any cost" was never my intention. Gotta say thanks for going to so much effort to break that down for me DannoXYZ...it really made things clear.

Much appreciated

[Mark944na86]

Danno,

I love that ad.

-Mark

[IceShark]

Originally posted by OzPorscheLover
Well I think that about answers my question.

Gotta say thanks for going to so much effort to break that down for me DannoXYZ...it really made things clear.

Much appreciated

Danno can get pretty worked up and will post messages with so much thought and detail that it can make your head spin. You just got one of those messages.

[fast924S]

Danno- I guess you can run High boost on a NA block. But just slapping a turbo on wont let you do it. Your gonna need proper tuning. I think one of the reasons people only really play with the Fuel mapping is because there really is no way other then a Stand alone or custom chips to tune your ignition curves. Fuel mapping has been made easy for the at home tuners because of tools like a Wideband A/f sensor ect.. It helps the person visiualize ther A/F ratios. If there was a way other then Standalone to help a at home tuner visualize there ignition curve then I bet you would see tons doing it.

[DannoXYZ]

" If there was a way other then Standalone to help a at home tuner visualize there ignition curve then I bet you would see tons doing it."

There are numerous ways. Just that the Porsche market is about 10-15 years behind the other ricers... The level of technology that we use is way, way outdated. Partly because Porsche always uses tried & true technology that's well tested and stays at least one-generation behind BMW who likes to use the latest and greatest stuff. But they also tend to be alot more unreliable (notice the droves of E46 M3s coming into dealers on flatbeds... .

but we don't have to be so far behind the times. Maybe 5 years may be enough. The biggest stumbling block we have to get around is this immediate reflex everyone throw up whenever you want to do something new, "Well, Porsche didn't do it that way, must've been a reason!" BAH! Fine! Keep your car in the stone-ages for all I care!

Anyway, if you look outside of the Porsche aftermarket, there's a tonne of great products available. I just hooked up a S-AFC-II to a customer car last week. People always seems to be amazed at that for some strange reason. This box has been around for 15 years! I used the 1st generation one on my Supra back in the mid-80s! Apparently, too many "tuners" in the Porsche market says it couldn't be done. HAH! Just because THEY couldn't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done!

[chuckw951]

Originally posted by fast924S
there really is no way other then a Stand alone or custom chips to tune your ignition curves.

What about the Electromotive HPX distributorless ignition system? I had one of those on my 911 and it was great...very easy to tweak the ignition curves...turn of the dials.

The newest version is called the XDI
http://www.clewett.com/products/ignition/ignit.htm#single

You can see the distributor block off plate and crank pulley wheel in this picture:

[eligunn]

If you had a NA with a blown motor and a wrecked turbo, it would be economical to do.

I've seen totaled turbos go for a thousand bucks here in the states.