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Non Compos Mentis
 
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Okay, guys. I have to admit that front-wheel-drive makes for better Saab ballets.

See Off-topic video if you haven't already.

Old 12-18-2005, 02:19 PM
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I agree with AaronM (logic major) and the original poster.

What is easier pushing or pulling?
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Old 12-18-2005, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 924Sracer
I agree with AaronM (logic major) and the original poster.

What is easier pushing or pulling?
Do horses push the cart?
Old 12-18-2005, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tervuren
Do horses push the cart?
Bad analogy (on both your part and the part of the person you quoted).

It's not a push vs. pull thing, it's a division of available traction thing.

And horses pull a cart because a cart is essentially hinged and having horses push a car would be like backing up with a trailer all the time.
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Old 12-18-2005, 10:38 PM
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If your car dies and you need to move it out of traffic, do you push it, or pull it? Not that it applies to the question at hand, but neither does the horse cart.
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Old 12-19-2005, 12:24 AM
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None of the horse/cart issues have anything to do with FWD vs RWD.
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Old 12-19-2005, 04:25 AM
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Hey dont knock the horse cart, alot of them can pull + 1g in the corners and they have the lightweight thing down so acceleration will nearly knock off your black Fedora.

The amish have it right when it comes to performance.
Old 12-19-2005, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pokey
If your car dies and you need to move it out of traffic, do you push it, or pull it? Not that it applies to the question at hand, but neither does the horse cart.
That will depend on what I have on hand. With a harness and rope, I'd pull it. But lackign the neccesary items, I'd push.
Old 12-19-2005, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave L
Hey dont knock the horse cart, alot of them can pull + 1g in the corners and they have the lightweight thing down so acceleration will nearly knock off your black Fedora.

The amish have it right when it comes to performance.
That reminds me of a joke:

Q: "What goes 'clip-clop clip-clop clip-clop BANG!'?"
A: "An Amish drive-by."
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Old 12-19-2005, 01:47 PM
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were all porsche guys here ..... RWD > FWD
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Old 12-19-2005, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
FWD cars cannot be throttle-steered to the same degree as RWD cars and the steering will always have less feel. That's simply the way things are.
All you do is expose the downfalls of the FWD cars... and praise the good things about RWD cars...
in our cars, which are amazing handlers even with novice drivers, have you ever accelerated hard in a curve on a wet or snowy road? have you ever had the ass end kick out behind you because of it? I have in both this, and in my old pontiac... the pontiac would never lose the road, wheras I've ended up sideways in a bus lane in my 944 because of it...

it's kinda like the power car vs. the 944 debate in a long twisty race.... the benefits of the 944, be it not power, is exploited to give it the upperhand against the powerhouse.. wheras in the parts of the track that are straighter, the power car will catch up... *it's a give and take.*

under equal circumstances, it's completely give and take. It totally depends on the conditions, the drivers, and the thread-count in the socks that you're running under the hood.... and that's all there is to it.
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Old 12-19-2005, 03:19 PM
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What did Honda do for it's top sports cars? (NSX and S2000), a company that exclusively built fwd, then building two rwd cars should tell us something. Fwd gets weird from torque steer with a lot of hp.
For dry pavement I'll take RWD every time. AWD is for snow/dirt/gravel, fwd works very well in wet.
Old 12-19-2005, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
What did Honda do for it's top sports cars? (NSX and S2000), a company that exclusively built fwd, then building two rwd cars should tell us something.
They're providing options.
and would you drive your s2000 in the snow or gravel? probably not.


oh, in my last post, add "structure of the car" to my list of variables...
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Old 12-19-2005, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jimbilly
What did Honda do for it's top sports cars? (NSX and S2000), a company that exclusively built fwd, then building two rwd cars should tell us something. Fwd gets weird from torque steer with a lot of hp.
For dry pavement I'll take RWD every time. AWD is for snow/dirt/gravel, fwd works very well in wet.
We are disccusing best handling here however, not fastest car. It is quite obviosu to most of us here that extremely high fowards torque at the wheels will cause traction problems in a front wheel drive car. It will not neccaisarily though cause "torque steer", that is from driveshafts at an angle, and can happen even in a low powered car.

Secondly, it is not horsepower alone, a 1000HP engine a high RPM, and a relatively flat torque curved, geared tall, might not even provide enough torque at the wheels to spin the tires. Horsepower is RPM X Torque in foot lb's / 5252.

In a lower power application, a FWD can be a contender against other cars of similar power. Keep in mind ,that this discussion is not on whith which platform you can build the fastest race car around a track, but about how a car 'handles". Its obvious to me, and I think most of us here, that once you pass a certain threshold, it is more difficult to work with a FWD platform. As someone who owns a car with definately under 200HP, a FWD could be an tractive choise to me if I chose to spend the time to learn to drive it good and proper.

I personaly enjoy the ability to if I realy want to on a wet day, swap ends in my car. It never got me killed, yet. ALthough granted, I've never swapped ends either. I have had rather major oversteer in my 944 before though. Twice in my current, both intentional. Aside from that, mild over or understeer in the wet feeling for traction, nothing that I would call "going sideways".

In a FWD, the concepts are different, my reaction in my 944 would need to be different in say, a civic engined mini.

Bw, I am not attacking you or anyon else in this thread, I am just (hopefully) clarifying a few things we have wandered off from.

Last edited by Tervuren; 12-19-2005 at 06:42 PM..
Old 12-19-2005, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eldorado
All you do is expose the downfalls of the FWD cars... and praise the good things about RWD cars...
in our cars, which are amazing handlers even with novice drivers, have you ever accelerated hard in a curve on a wet or snowy road? have you ever had the ass end kick out behind you because of it? I have in both this, and in my old pontiac... the pontiac would never lose the road, wheras I've ended up sideways in a bus lane in my 944 because of it...

it's kinda like the power car vs. the 944 debate in a long twisty race.... the benefits of the 944, be it not power, is exploited to give it the upperhand against the powerhouse.. wheras in the parts of the track that are straighter, the power car will catch up... *it's a give and take.*

under equal circumstances, it's completely give and take. It totally depends on the conditions, the drivers, and the thread-count in the socks that you're running under the hood.... and that's all there is to it.
In the middle of a curve with a FWD car I hit the gas and the front lost it, which took me across three lanes of traffic at 50 mph. Trust me, that's every bit as scary as spinning.

FWD does a different thing when the driven wheels loose traction, but it's no better than RWD in the end. I've lost traction in corners with FWD more ofthen than with RWD actually.

Besides, it goes without saying that we're talking about handling in ideal conditions. I didn't think I needed to mention FWD's clear superiority (assuming front engine) in bad weather since a handling discussion by its very nature implies dry conditions on a clean asphalt surface.
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Shifting is an art. Learn it, love it, live it.
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Silver 1998 Volvo S70 T5 <- Daily (Anja)
Guards Red 1986 951 <- Seattle car (Gretchen)
White 1976 914 2.0 F.I. <- Prodigal car, traded away then brought back again (Lorelei)
Old 12-20-2005, 07:19 PM
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well it's not exclusively a "handling" discussion...
he asked what was better all around..
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Old 12-20-2005, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eldorado
well it's not exclusively a "handling" discussion...
he asked what was better all around..
Quote:
I have been arguing with my buddy over this for about two weeks and have gotten a lot of different opinions from a lot of different people. We added drinking to the arguments a few times and it got dangerous. Someone help us out. Which handles better?
Which is better for the fastest race car is a much easier question then which handles better. I'd say its fairly common concent that you can build a faster RWD then FWD car given good pavement and powerfull engines.

FWD is obviously a more compact arrangement for a car, which allows a car to be smaller, and still keeping similar passenger/luggage space, smaller, is generaly going to be lighter, so you are more econmical fuel wise as well. Tires, fronts will obviously wear much faster, with much more demanded of them.

A RWD is a lot less complex, you need less(or no) axel articulation depending on setup. (independant or not). Due to weight transfer, it can handle higher power levels, which for an inexpensive car, is not a requirement.

Better all around then, is also a fairly difficult question to answer. I'd just say leave it to whatever an individual needs. Some one who is only going to be rock crawling, doesn't need a T-maxx, they want a live axel machine. Doesn't realy matter to them what is best all around.

For me, I want cornering, braking, inexpensive, ability to carry two people, and my Remote control Racing stuff. For the price, the 944 is pretty much perfect. I can make a right turn onto a road withotu dropping below 35 if the pavement is smooth. I realy love the 944, its about the perfect car for me.

But waht if someone needs to carry 6 people? The 944 is no longer "best" for them. (Although two or three 944's might do the trick )
Old 12-20-2005, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pokey
If your car dies and you need to move it out of traffic, do you push it, or pull it? Not that it applies to the question at hand, but neither does the horse cart.
what if your horse dies?


torque steer is bad too.
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Old 12-20-2005, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eldorado
well it's not exclusively a "handling" discussion...
he asked what was better all around..
Ahh, I took it as a straight-up, dry track, handling question.

Apologies for that mistake.

In terms of normal, everyday, on-road driving in varried conditions you're right, it's a trade-off. I still hold that for dry conditions RWD is undeniably superior, but you're exactly right that FWD has myriad advantages when the weather becomes inclement.
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Old 12-20-2005, 09:25 PM
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so i guess that's the answer right there... and i'm surprised that the majority of people here are in agreement over it.. well, maybe not surprised.. we all drive the 944 family

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Old 12-20-2005, 09:36 PM
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