Head studs and Headgasket question

[AA_Ezra]

Currently getting all new components to rebuild my 84 motor with 88k and i was wondering if i should or if it is recomended to replace the head studs i've heard that they have stretch bolts and studs so is this true?

Second question is it better to upgrade to a widefire head gasket or use the standard gasket... Pro's and cons ?

Thanks for any replies
J

[nynor]

i didn't replace the studs, but they had been replaced once already. i used the widefire, even though it was on my '83... i figured, why not, can't hurt.

[TSNAPCRACKLEPOP]

i am surprised yoou need a rebuild at 88k.

i used stock gasket on my 87, and the original head bolts. i bought it with the head in the shop and the rest of the top end in the rear hatch area. i inspected the head bolts for any obvious "thead stretcheing" or damage and saw none. i cleaned them well on a wire wheel. i did not hurry. i printed out the procedure from clarks garage. i did not use a torque wrench, but torque angles instead. i used loctite. i let the head settle overnite between tightenings, and tapped it with a hammer to help seat it. it runs gr\eat. take your time and be careful and clean. it will be fun. mine screams!!!!!!!!!!!!

clean those fuel injectors, and rebuild them.

[AA_Ezra]

The engine has 88k but it was sitting about 2 years from the guy i bought it from and been sitting here with me for about 3-4 months. So figured might as well rebuild the darn thing
I'll clean the injectors like you said.. I'm not sure how yet but where there is a will there is a way.

[yellowline]

The "standard" head gasket kit, like so many other things, has been superseded by the turbo part. It's fine.

I did mine at 123k. There was minimal wear of parts, I looked at the cam, pistons, walls, etc. I did everything that was included in the head gasket kit. Nothing particularly special. I torqued to specific values, and waited 15 minutes between torquings. It was fine that way as well.

If you're set on rebuilding it, I'd say it's a great opportunity to redo the bottom end bearings. I don't think it would need much else, unless it was severly abused or a fulltime track motor. Mine uses minimal oil and runs great.

[Granite 944]

My opinion is at 88k (original) miles (or is it 88K miles after a previous "rebuild"), if original, I'd assume its never been apart before anyway. My general rule of thumb is, if the head hasn't been removed more than twice, AND/OR after you clean up those studs sticking out of the block with a good wire brushing on a motor, and they don't show any signs of corrosion pitting, I re-use 'em.

Are ya planning on removing them to clean, and taking a real good looky peeky (like in a "real" rebuild"), or ya just gonna leave 'em in, and go from there? You'll need a stud remover, maybe a little heat applied, and or a lot of effort with heat and double nutting them. Stud removers can and generally will score up the studs in the process of removing them, making them more of a canidate for replacement. Putting the stripped block in an oven is another choice. Your choice. I doubt ya need to replace or remove. Stretched threads are fairly obvious to spot, if you look for it, but I think less likely. Kinda depends on what your planning on putting the engine thru, once your done.

Wildfire gasket? Don't know. I kinda think its a waste of money for this application, however. Its an NA your working on, not a real high compression screamer/racer. I kinda am a thinking its more of a hype thing. Especially, considering its an NA.

No expert here, just some opinions, and thoughts for ya to ponder.

I'd love to know what "all new components to rebuild my 84 motor" really is.

I'm sorry, there I go again, seeing the word "rebuild", and wondering what that means to you. I know what it means to me. I'm thinking the word, "overhaul" .....kinda? Ya got a machine shop in your back pocket, ready for help/referral/advisement?

Good luck, you'll do just fine!

[AA_Ezra]

My mistake the engine has 84k original miles that i know of.
By rebuild i want to replace and get the folowing components

Cylinder head gasket kit
All of front engine seals balance,crank,cam,oil pump,water pump seals
Rod Bearings
Maine bearings
Balance shaft bearings
Water pump
Oil pump
Oil cooler seal
Oil pan seal
Oil filler tube o-rings
Oil pickup sump o-rings ( if there is any)
Rear main seal on back of cltuch
Intake and exhaust Valves
Valve guides and seals
Posibly new lifters
Piston rings
Crankshaft bearing if it needs it but will probly replace anyway to be safe
( the big one on rear of engine)
New cam bolts
New head stud's and bolts if needed
New belts and rollers
Rebuild clean Injectors myself
DME temp sensor
Engine temp sensor
Thermostat lower temp
Any bolts, nuts and screws that i can replace with new just to be safe
And lil stuff i probly for got now but wont when i rebuild :P i hope
That bout covers it let me know if i missed anything

Other things i will do or replace as needed:
Injectors/ seals
Aux air valve
Polish intake manifold
New sach's clutch kit ( waiting for ups to deliver)
Hydraulic lifters
Big Vaccume hoses under Manifold
Refrence sensors
new small vac lines
cltuch hose
Master and slave clutch cylinders,
Ill stop now as there's lots of little things that arent motor related
But most of the vac lines and intake boot I have new already

Regards
jaime

[TSNAPCRACKLEPOP]

rear main seal on back of clutch.....oh, engine.

mine sat for 2 years headless before i got it with the head off, and 2 more years before i reassembled it with the head off because that other guy did not put it together after i paid him. it was uncovered with the hood closed, , and the cylinders were full of leaves and dust/mud/dirt. i cleaned off the pistions carefully and wiped the walls down, checked for the nonexistent ring groove which i expected to find with 179 k miles on it. there was a very minute one!!! negligible wear in a previously dealer maintained car.... i put it together and it runs great. just do the top end. it will be fine. drive it.

[TSNAPCRACKLEPOP]

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tsnapcracklepop/album?.dir=c802&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tsnapcracklepop/my_photos

se my progressive photos

[TSNAPCRACKLEPOP]

some of those photos are the samuri head removal.

the colorado pix are the maiden voyage.

[Granite 944]

Just for the record, I'm NOT trying to rain on your parade, BUTT..........

My, thats a great list of parts you got there. Some of which, I really doubt you actually need to figure on, and MANY more not there.

Are we gonna do anything like machine shop work, including measuring the cylinder bores, pistons, rod resizing/main journals/deck flatness/crank journals/cam journals/ tower lifter hole checks and stuff like that? In other words, is a machine shop gonna be involved at ALL, here?

Don't mind me, I'm just giving ya a bad time..........but something to think about........also.

Hell, if your gonna be in it THAT FAR, ya might as well go the whole nine yards, ya know. And, if you do. DOCUMENT IT ALL!

Just curious. How much you expecting all this to cost?

My definition of "rebuild" ALWAYS includes machine shop labor/work. Head and block. Not just parts that I want or think I might need to install. In my definition of "REBUILD"..........IF, your not bringing it back to within stock specifications (measurements are required, and, done properly), THAN, it is NOT a rebuild, and I just consider it, a replacing of parts willy-nilly thing, surely NOT a "rebuild". If ya are doing a "REAL rebuild", it will take time, money, and research. Parts are nice to change, but mean NOTHING, if you don't have the rest of it falling in place, and should NEVER be called a "REBUILD" if done ONLY, that way.

I shall not "rain on your parade no more".

I know guys........its just a "WORD". Missused frequently, I might add, here, and many other places. "overhaul" is another........."word". All I'm really saying is.....try to keep it real, and help educate the inexperienced.

[AA_Ezra]

There's a good shop in the next town over that a freind recomended to me, said if i had about 1200$ to be safe they would do the head and the engine block, hone and all that stuff. But i dont think they got the stuff to work on my block and it would be tooo expensive. I'm going to have the maching shop do only the things i cant do like.. resurfacing the head or block if it needs it. Checking to see if i even need new vavles etc and will replace them and have them check for adjustment if i do. Regrinding the crankshaft if it need's it. Journals are the surface areas that the bearing's go on correct? The O-ring type opening on the bottom of the rod where bearigns go those are the jornals if my mind serve em correct right?.

I' got a few freinds lined up to help me out here and there with tool's if my dad whose a bodyman doesent have them. And a freind who is just curently going to school to be a mechanic who offered to help me out if my rebuild takes more then a year because he will out of school by then

I just want to make sure i do everthing right.. If im going to do something as you said " the whole nine yards" im going to do it right. Income taxes are coming soon so that will help out money wise, but im surfing everyday to get parts i need cheap. Being a student and working part time at 20hrs a week or less and Havign a porsche mean's i got to have help with connetions(machine shop) on parts or find them cheap wherever i can and still be OEM parts.

As far as documentaion by the time i'm done I will hopefully have more pages worth in pics alone then the hayens manual.( put it up on a site and let people add to the archives)

I'll probly take hundres of pictures(delete bad ones) and have a notepad for everthing i do and how i do it. In the end i want to put as much info as i can so somone else can do the same thing and it be easy b/c of all the pictures, and will make it easier to rebuild and engine for a novice like me.
Key word PICTURES.. i'm thinking over a hundred atleast in photos to help document it correctly

Regards
jaime

[AA_Ezra]

Does an turbo headgasket work for an na. if so what would be the advantage or reason?

I just pulled off a head off an 85.5 and IIRC the headgasket said Turbo on it. Looks like it has been rebuilt (head) could they have taken it down enuff that it needed to have a larger gasket?

[geoffbaltz]

Whoa!!! The motor only has 88K miles on it! Save your time and money. If you know the HG is blown, then replace it. Go with the factory HG and personally, I would replace the head studs. And please, please use a torque wrench. It scares me when I read thing like this:

i did not use a torque wrench, but torque angles instead

Anyway, these motors are pretty bulletproof on the bottom end and you are talking about an N/A motor. Spend a weekend doing the head gasket and studs and save all that money you listed out in parts and drive the car and enjoy it!

[AA_Ezra]

I still have the 85k Engine untouched but i pulled off a head on an 85.5 and cam for my current engine that's in the car so i can take care of the lifter noise and save $ on a head that alreadys looks rebuilt. But The 85.5 that i pulled it off from had a Turbo Head gasket wich made me currious as to why they would use it. Hence, Was it taken down so much it needed a trubo HG or are the Turbo HG just a better choice for cheap inssurance to prevent leaks.

[Razorback1980]

Hey Jaime

I think I have some parts I could throw your way. Email me at twilmoth@ev1.net and I'll look and see what I have for you.

[pokey]

The Turbo gasket is correct for all 2.5s. The factory did away with the N/A specific gasket. Likely, the head was redone but no bottom end work and no block machining.

[Granite 944]

If your planning on really going thru with this, you NEED the FSM, Haynes is handy for some things, and even a subscription to ALLDATA.COM wouldn't be a bad idea either. Study up, my friend, it is NOT a typical aluminum block engine.

If your not liking the "$1200.00" quote you got, just what do you think the final cost of doing this "right" is gonna be? $1200.00 is about 1/2 of what you should be expecting. And probably more. A real "rebuild" is NOT cheap.

[AA_Ezra]

I'm estimating to be about 2-3k Depending if i have to hone and get new pistons. And if i do I'll probly just give up as it's very expensive from what i hear. On the other hand the car would las another 20 years for 2-3k invesment still sound's like a good idea. If it's any more then that i'll have to postpone when i get out of school.


Hey Razor, i'm still waiting on buying parts as i just missed an opertonity to buy a 951 for 3k I'm going to wait untill the day i need the parts before i order. But what did you have in mind? if you have to look for stuff don't even worry about it. I'll be sure to hit you up first before i buy anything.

[Granite 944]

What the **** IS this..... "Did someone say the Grid Girls were coming back?!?' CRAP doing in the bottom of a post that I made!

WHAT THE HELL........AND WHY IS IT THERE?.......I didn't put it there!

I SURE DON'T LIKE IT........AND DON'T APPRECIATE IT!! Anyone able to explain THAT?