Third Try: Rebuild or Replace
 

I'm not sure what happened with the first two times I attempted to post this. At first, neither showed up, now both do. Mods, can you delete the first two "Rebuild or Replace" threads?

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I'm fairly certain my valve seals are leaking.

Rather than starting to dig into it and have more an more little things pile on, I was thinking about buying a rebuilt cylinder head from 944Online.com and just have everything taken care of in one fell swoop.

Any thoughts on this course of action?

Any thoughts on getting a head from 944Online?

I talked to the dude Ian at 944Online and he seemed to be on the up and up, so if you go with them at least that should be a good experience.

ALSO- Its looking like I might be around here for a day or so when you get to FL, so perhaps an evening at Juvat's might work out for me.

Great!

We can talk more about getting together in mid-December. Anything before that and I am likely to make promises I can't keep.

Yeah, I can't really plan things very well either.

Either way you have to take the head off. Is it cheaper to buy the rebuilt head or take yours to a machine shop? I would think the machine shop is cheaper but I'm not sure.

Finding a reputable machine shop within 100 miles might be a problem.

I'm also thinking in terms of minimizing mistakes I might make and minimizing down time for the car.

You have a point about minimal downtime. If it were mine, it would come down to this...is it only the seals or is it the valve guides and seats too? If it's only the seals, ANYONE can change them in a few minutes. They are very easy to change. If it requires replacing guides and seats and resurfacing valves, then if you want to minimize downtime, buy the rebuilt head.

Being somewhat of a perfectionist with my baby, I know I will find more than just the seals.

That's why I'm thinking it would be best just to start with a fresh head from the beginning, rather than deciding to do more and more as I get into the project.

May as well pick up a rebuilt head........... then sells yours.

Only if I can get more than the $600 core charge for it. ;)

You can have the head rebuilt locallly for i would bet less than $250 including parts and labor.

The 944 head isnt anything special, ask around the local Porsche shops and see who is trusted. If they can do a Chevy head they can do a 944 head. Valve guides and stem seals will probably cost you about $60-75 total. Labor varies but i doubt it would be more than 4-5 hours work.

I just had mine redone and it cost $140 for labor. It was roughly 4.5 hours at $30 an hour. That included checking the sealing surface, pressure checking, hot tank / steam cleaning, 5 angle valve job and changing the stem seals and valve guides.

It really depends on if you can afford a day or so of downtime.

Hmmm....maybe I will check around.

Did they do the complete rebuild for you or just the machining?

Complete rebuild

Did the same locally. Took it apart myselfe and took it in. Did a complete check after for valve clearance and the like. Simplest of jobs. Replaced three valves (you know why) 4 guides, plained etc and all the rest. All the Porsche people in the area swore nobody within 300 miles was good enough except Porsche shops. Well the shop I've used for years did a great job.

I have purchased stuff from Ian before. Very relaxed and nowlegeable guy very honest. and was honest about whether or not to buy the accessories i wanted to get. If you do go the route of buying a rebuilt head i'm sure there wouldent be any problems

Hmmm....where can I get a parts list for rebuilding a head? Clark's Garage has nothing.

talk to a guy that has done it, like Paul...
straight from the horse's mouth is best! (sorry paul.. didn't mean to call you a horse :p)

I just saw a generic list on a thread yesterday? Still have to go through the list for your specific model.

Well, this is turning into a monster.

I have four options so far:

1) Get a rebuilt head from Porsche. The head will cost $2,462.98 and the total job (including coolant, oil, timing belt, balance belt, tensioners and seals) will cost $4,310.34.

2) Get a rebuilt head from 944 Online. The head will cost $895.00 and the total job (including all above) will cost $2,701.40.

3) Have Lindsey Racing rebuild the head. The rebuild will cost $1,329 (with the performance options I want) and the total job (including all above) will cost $3,135.40.

4) Have the mechanic do the head rebuild. The rebuild will cost $1,046.59 and the total job (including all above) will cost $2,893.95.

Questions:

How reputable are 944 Online and Lindsey Racing?

chris! comon man!! snap out of it! now im the last guy that should be giving advice around here but....

pull your head, go slow and read, get your rebuilt, i'll bet you'll be up and running for 500 bucks!!

techno just did this whole ordeal!! and something tells me theres another member that is currently knee deep in a head project...

you can do it!! :)

Chris, I just re-built the head on my S. Piece of cake. I had the guides and seats replaced at the shop. I did the rest in my garage. If you can have the car down a couple of days DIY. I think I have around 10 hours of my own time in the total rebuild, that includes R&R time. The hardest part for me was getting the springs balanced, that took some time measure all of them.

Are you at all mechanically inclined? Can you afford a few days of downtime? If you answer yes to both of these questions, you can get this done for well under $1000 on your own time.

Lindsay and 944Online are both very reputable.

With option #4, $1000 for a head rebuild is freaken ridiculous. Paying that much for a modified head from Lindsay is one thing, but a basic rebuild should not cost you more than $2-300 locally (even that is high).

A $1000 head rebuild should include 8 brand new valves (About $80 each), which is not necesary unless yours are damaged or burnt. New valve guides, stem seals and probably valve springs.

Mechanically inclined? I like to think so. I've build paintball guns from scratch and did pull the AC last year.

Can I afford down time? It's a third vehicle that I store for the winter...

Well...I may just start to dig into it myself.

Slow and steady. This may take me a month or two, but I'd rather take my time and not make mistakes.

I'll probably pull the head in a weekend or two and assess the situation.

I think I may send it into Lindsey racing for some performance upgrades with the money I'll end up saving...

<BR>

that MIGHT be me...

locally, here in salt lake city, if you take your head to NAPA, they will surface the head, touch up the valves, replace the seals, check the guides, touch up the seats, reassemble the head, for $70. yep, $70. i took them the valve seals i got with my reinz gasket kit and they did the whole thing, including transferring the springs from my OLD head the NEW head (the new head was in better shape, but it had a couple broken springs, which was weird), for $70.

i bet your valves and seats are fine, unless you snapped your timing belt.

personally, i am going to be in it for a bit more. i am changing all my belts, the rollers, the thermostats, and the radiator hoses, along with some intercooler hoses and vacuum lines under the intake manifold.

$70 now thats a deal that sounds too good to be true, my PO had the head overhauled and was charged 12hours labour @ $78/hr. All part of a $5800 repair bill. Sometimes there are good PO's!

I've done a couple Porsches and many other engines. The head went to my local auto machine shop. Measured it all up, tanked, valve/seat grinding, put the three new valves, guides and seals I got from Pelican in, tested all springs, measured valve clearance and matched them, etc. etc. and it all cost me about $250. Disasembly and reasembly was about 2 days including all the bearings seals belts etc while I was in there.

the receipt went to the new owner, or i'd show you.

I've got to say...I'm getting a little nervous about this.

Just a reminder on the last time I attempted something this major:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-924-944-968-technical-forum/215869-one-less-s.html

No need it just seems like a really really good deal thats all

oh, i was stoked, for sure.

oh, yeah, i remember the post about the burnt S. shizzit happens, i guess. something like that would probably make me second guess myself also.

I will be right there to buy your turbo if something goes wrong. I got your back man! :)

Chris,
Go for it. If you have the time and the space then rip into it. Take your time and do the job right. I like your idea of taking the money you would save and put it into some performance work. That very justification is how I was able to purchase all my tools for my garage.

Speedy:)

Richard, I may need your help if I get in over my head. Beer, food, room and board on me (and whatever else it takes to persuade you). Regardless, I may enlist you for help when it comes to timing belt tensioning time.

If I am free I would be willing to give you a hand on the tensioning or at the very least I can lend you my P9201.

I usually hold tensioning parties at my place and was planning on having one come spring. Maybe we can do it at your place when it is time for you to reinstall your head.

Speedy:)

I'd be up for hosting.

Well, I think I'm going to pay to do this.

It's 22 hours of labor (which would be about 44 hours for me)--and I don't have any spare time right now. I've travelled six out of the last six weekends, including weeklong stints in Florida and Las Vegas. The sad fact is that if I don't pay someone to do it, the car is going to sit, unused.

There is nothing wrong with deciding to pay to have it done. A lot of us "do-it-yourselfers" like myself enjoy the work to boot.

Even though it is not *that* hard, it is still a major job for which mistakes could be costly.

I have dealt with 944 Online a number of times (Ian) and have always felt they were very professional. Although I have not bought any of their re-built items, I was looking seriously into a rebuilt transaxle and recieved very good (and detailed) answers to my questions that indicated that they did stuff "right".

What I would do if you are going to pay to have it done:

find a local good High performance. (I'm talking about race engine builders)repair facility that is open to this car. Or go to the drag strip and talk to some of teh quick 16 owners or Fast street car guys. Tell them it is not very hard.

I will even communicate with them if necessary.

Have them pull the head. They will flow it stock then make the porting plans and do it (or have it done by their guy).
Honestly I think Porsche folks competely overpay for some things.

I would bet that for about 1500 you could have the labor and porting done. Ths is w/o doing TB or anything (just the head)


The thing people just don't seem realize that is when the head is off it is just another piece of aluminum that functions exactly the same as all others. There should be no reason to pay outragous prices for performance head work IMO.

Sid