Timing belt - want to DIY, but....

[fbgh2o]

I have been perusing for some time now on replacing timing belts. I have a 944 n/a that will be due (probably belts and rollers) and a new 951 which although it only has 5,000 miles since the last change it has been close to 4 years (may only do belts and rollers).

Here is the challenge. I am okay at the minor stuff, plugs, wires etc., but tend to take the car to a good Porsche mechanic for the more complex stuff due to a lack of experience that breed lack of confidence. However, at $500 to $800 labour (I will supply the parts) per car, I would very much like do it myself. I have the factory manuals and Clarke's garage and would acquire the tensioning tool, but am still lacking the confidence to do it alone. I mean it is the last thing that I would want mess up.

Any thoughts? Should I try this myself or not?

Am located in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada and we don't seem to have any timing belt gatherings here

[aj951]

I understand your dilemma. I just struggled with the same decision myself. I decided to go for it. I researched as much as I could and talked to as many people that I could get to talk to me. I am in the middle of the job right now waiting on the tensioning tool and parts to arrive. I have removed the old belts and rollers and have not had any problems yet, but of course that was not the hard part. The hard part is going to be tensioning the belts and making sure nothing moves. I probably have about the same mechanical experience as you, if not a little more. I decided to DIY because I wanted to learn something and I have had bad experiences with taking the car to the shop (bad scratches to paint). Everybody has different reasons for DIY, financial, aren't satisfied with shop work, or just want the satisfaction of DIY. I say read as much as you can to build you confidence with process and get the proper tools. If you decide to do it on your own and aren't sure about something in the middle of the job, be patient and use this forum to help you. Like I said, I am in the middle of the job myself for the first time and I may screw something up, but the price will be tuition toward learning something. If I don't screw it up I still have learned something and I get the satisfaction of doing it myself. Just my 2 cents but ultimately you have to way the risk and make the decision on your own. Good Luck!

[Techno Duck]

Do it yourself. Try it on the n/a first. Its a little easier as there is much less stuff that needs to be removed and there is more space to work unless you decide to remove the coolant water pipe (which is kind of a PITA). The hardest thing i can think of for someone not experienced with changing a timing belt is putting the belt back on and making sure none of the gears move. All it really takes is figuring out how much you want to advance or retard the cam gear (flywheel should be locked) before putting the belt on...be it 1 or 2 teeth. This is because if your car has the spring tensioner it will cause the gear to rotate slightly when you put tension on the belt..not sure if this is the same case if you have the eccentric roller, but i would imagine it is. Its really very simple. The only other thing to look out for is making sure you correctly set the balance shafts. Its not hard, just you need to really double check the markings on the sprockets to make sure everything is lined up correctly.

Not to mention if you get into a bind, you basically have 24/7 tech support on here..even on Christmas and New Years Eve .

[Panzer909]

+1 for doing it yourself. I just did mine for the forst time exactly one year ago and took it slow. Learned a lot along the way, saved bundles of cash, and had a little fun while I was at it. Search my posts; I took lots of pics during the process.
Its really not that bad a job to do yourself - even for the first time. Just make sure the rollers are aligned correctly. Its almost really that simple once everything is apart. Don't be shy to ask frequent questions along the way.
The only "bad" part was when I had everything back together. I made double-triple-QUADRUPLE sure that everything lined up and was at least a ballpark correct tension before firing the car up. I remember having butterflies in my stomach because I was so nervous as the key went in the ignition. Said a quiet prayer, sighed, and............it started right up

[mattdavis11]

Do it yourself. If you scribe marks before you start it makes it easier to get the orientation right. After that it's a tooth here or there. It's pretty easy, and you'll feel good about yourself when finished. The one thing that may be weighing heavily on you conscience is being able to get the proper belt tension. I wouldn't worry about that too much, it's just a rubber belt. You really don't need a special tensioning tool. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that no one on this board has the proper factory tension on their belts right now, unless they just got finished with tensioning. Even then I'd be skeptical that it's dead on. It's hard to get the correct reading, consistently. I've tried with the p9201, and got 3 different readings each time I spun the motor around. Close is good enough, and you can do that by hand.

[fbgh2o]

Thanks for the encouragement. I am going to think long and hard about this before I proceed, but recognize the value of your support and Pelican's forum. It gives me some confidence. In any case, I about to start on a dash removal and replacement and speaker replacement for the 951.

Once that is done I decide on how I feel about doing the timing and balance shaft belts. And go from there.

Question - given that the 951 has the belt changed only 5K miles ago, should I bother changing the rollers or just do the belts?

[aj951]

If you have documentation stating the rollers and tensioners were changed 5K ago and you check them for smooth operation by spinning and listening to them, I would not change them. Again, just my 2 cents.

[fbgh2o]

I have all of the records for the car including the window sticker. The PO put almost $4K into the car in June 2004. Did a full tune up, all belts, rollers, seals etc. It has been well maintained, I am just worried about the age of the belts.

What should I be listening for in spinning them?

[aj951]

I am told if they sound like an old roller-skate wheel that you should replace them. My belts were almost 3 years old and only had 10K miles on them. When I inspected them they looked very good. I had documentation from the P.O. on the belt change but the documentation didn't say anything about the tensioners and rollers. I decided to change the belts and tensioners/rollers just to be safe. My rollers seemed very smooth but did have a slight sound like a roller-skate. I haven't received my new rollers yet but they could sound the same. I will let you know.

[Marcone]

Hey fbhg.. i live in Burlington Ontario..

im due as well.. on my 951 and on my S2

Ive done it before on my beemer.. not too hard.. if youre up for the task we could do a meet at some point .. when its not bloody freezing... or if you know of a nice indoor heated garage.. there are a few near me..

Just throwing it out there

Lemme know, i love cruising around and ottawa isnt that far

Marcone

[Luis de Prat]

Great thread. Admin, please sticky!

[speedracing944]

Originally Posted by mattdavis11

Do it yourself. If you scribe marks before you start it makes it easier to get the orientation right. After that it's a tooth here or there. It's pretty easy, and you'll feel good about yourself when finished. The one thing that may be weighing heavily on you conscience is being able to get the proper belt tension. I wouldn't worry about that too much, it's just a rubber belt. You really don't need a special tensioning tool. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that no one on this board has the proper factory tension on their belts right now, unless they just got finished with tensioning. Even then I'd be skeptical that it's dead on. It's hard to get the correct reading, consistently. I've tried with the p9201, and got 3 different readings each time I spun the motor around. Close is good enough, and you can do that by hand.

I would be willing to bet my '83 is in factory specs.

There is a reason for the specs read from the P9201 which Porsche designated. Usually between the 15K mile retensions the belt will show a little slack from where it was last time but that is why we retension every 15K.

There is a great guy on Pelican who lends out his factory P9201. In my opinion there is no reason to not use the factory tool for this job.

I say go for it. DIY. You have lots of help from this board and justas long as you triple check everything before you start your car you shoudl be OK. Oh by the way just because you take your car to the mechanic doesn't mean the job will be done right. I retensioned a guys belts who had it done at a P-car mechanic and his timign belts tension read 6.0 using the P9201. I am sure it was much higher when the mechanic did the work :O


Speedy

[mattdavis11]

I have been known to be wrong. The only point I was trying to make was that I have a hard time believing that it makes that much of a difference.

Here's why.

I put brand new belts on which were tensioned with a P9201 in Jan. 2004, and checked and adjusted 3 months and later (near 1500 miles) with the same P9201, which had been calibrated both times before it hit the belts. Both belts were adjusted to 2.7 +/- .3. Come 18 months later in Sept. 2005, my balance belt has 9 teeth left on one side. The timing belt looked great, but was a tad loose, so I adjusted it by feel. I also threw on a new balance belt and tensioned it by feel. Last summer when I took them off, they were a tad loose, but didn't look worse for the wear. I had put maybe 7000 miles on the car since Jan. 2004.

So realistically I had a balance belt that narrowly escaped catastrophic failure at 21 months, which was tensioned and adjusted with the factory tool, and one that lasted 21 months that was tensioned by hand, never adjusted, and looked brand new when I took it off in July earlier this year. I doubt I was sold a bad balance belt. I've bought all my belts from them, all were/are conti's, and they sell a lot of them.

That's my bad experience with the p9201. I didn't use one before that, and will never use one again.

[Razorback1980]

There are a few different methods and I've used them all except the cricket. One of...if not the best Porsche mechanic here (SoCal) would only use the twist method others only use the 9201. I use Bruce's tool. The bottom line changing the belts isn't that hard and if our tech support here can't help you, is sounds like you have a friend close by that might be willing to lend you a hand. Give yourself plenty of time the first time and go for it. Worst case scenario....you have to tow it to the shop and have them complete it for you. The repair bill should be the same as if you took it to them in the first place.

[fbgh2o]

Thanks for all the encouragement. I am going ti give it whirl. I just changed the clutch on my TR6 (not that I am comparing, but it generates confidence) and feel a whole lot better about trying once I have completed the other work that I have planned.

Marcone, I will PM you after the holidays to see if we can connect to collaborate. Many thanks for the offer.

Happy holidays to all.

[dangerous]

Go for it buddy...don't be intimidated about the belts
The mere fact that you recognize your limited experience indicates that you will be the type of person who carefully follows the steps. you're actually the type of person who SHOULD work on this car....

There's plenty of help here anyway.
you've got the procedure, clark's and the factory manuals (you'll find that clark's is really all you need though)

I wouldn't blow the cash on buying the 9201 though...even as a first timer. Some people will blow a gasket reading this... but it's a lot of dough. There's a couple of folks loaning 'em, and that's nice. The Arnworx (sp) tool is kinda interesting....I'd like to check one out sometime just for kicks. You've probably already read that if the belt isn't tensioned properly, it will slip and the world comes to an end. Yeah, it's true. You will actually die.

Nah, just relax. The worst thing that can happen is you'll smash some valves. I haven't bent valves myself, but pulling the head is not that bad either.

I knew a mechanic in Germany who used his calibrated thumb while holding a Hefe Weizen in his other hand....and he never had a belt fail on him.

Send me an email when you have a chance and I'll give you my phone number. You can call if you need help....but the people here will keep you on track.

[aj951]

I just successfully ( no bent valves) completed my first timing and balance belt R/R today. I replaced the tensioners, idlers, and both belts. I did not have the P9201 but I did use the Arnworx tensioning gauge. The new rollers did not make a sound when they were spun by hand, where as the old ones did have the roller-skate wheel sound. According to the Arnworx gauge, my spring tensioner was actually tensioning the timing belt just a little too tight for a new belt, so I backed the spring tensioner off just a little. I know most of the experienced folks on this board have stated that the spring tensioner usually does not tension a new belt tight enough so I will keep an eye on it. The balance belt seems way too loose (you can actually move the belt in and out a little on the crank gear but the belt will not slide off) but I set it according to the Arnworx tool. I left the belt cover off so that I could watch how the belts are tracking. I want to double check the balance belt with the Kricket tool. Does the balance belt idler need to be removed to check the balance belt tension with the Kricket? It seems like it would have to be.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my questions. I would not have had the confidence to do the job without everyones help.

[fbgh2o]

Thanks for the offer dangerous. I am PMing you.

Congrats aj951! I will be getting the Arnworx tool to do the jobs. Figure the cost amortized over the 944 n/a and the 951 is really nothing. I have to check to see if the cars now both have the later model water pumps to confirm the kits to get. Based on the current pace of projects, I hope to get to the belts in March. Have a another TR6 engine and transmission to pull first