still can,t get it to start help!!!!!!

malpaslane · 02-16-2008, 03:21 PM

Hi All, 1982 924 turbo, bought it as a non runner , told it was fuel problem, changed fuel pump and relay , i have good fuel pressure and spark,but still it won,t start, it won,t even fire, cough or fart. Now i,m thinking is it electrical or timing or something else. injectors fire if i let the key go after cranking and if i keep turning key and pump primes system, has someone played with the idle and messed the timing up ,if so how do i get it back if car won,t start, same with the air screw, or should i be looking somewhere different. any help would be very very helpful, as i,ve looked at all the common things and nothing...

jmd_forest · 02-16-2008, 04:22 PM

Car needs 4 items to start: fuel, spark, compression, and timing.
1) make sure the timing belt is intact and turning the camshaft, If so, timing is most likely OK, but you might want to check all timing marks line up. If not, it needs to be fixed.
2) Pull each spark plug, 1 by 1, and ground it to the engine block while turning the engine over. Make sure you see spark on each plug. If not, it needs to be fixed (DME, coil, ignition relay, ???)
3) Pull the air cleaner and give the car a shot of starting fluid in the intake while turning the car over.

I'm assuming the car sat for a while (years ?) before you bought it. If the car fires with the starting fluid but will not run otherwise, get a BIG screwdriver and hold it like a pool que and then gently but firmly tap each of the injectors near where they meet the block. Injectors that sit for a while often get gummed up and "bind" The tapping gets them to "unbind" and pass fuel.

jmd_forest

earlr85944 · 02-16-2008, 04:34 PM

also make sure the spark plug wires are going to the right plugs, just went thru this...

drew1 · 02-16-2008, 06:24 PM

JMD & earl have it right, but I'll elaborate.

1. Check & make sure cam timing is right. From memory it's a 22mm bolt on crank you can turn. There is a groove in the crank pulleulley that aligns, & the cam pulley has a mark that alligns with the valve cover. The rotor in the distributor should allign with a mark on the distbutor base. If this is good, we can go on.

2. As the others mentioned, check for a spark & firing order. I would use a gapped type tester instead of a spark plug wire to ground because of the electronics. If these are good, check the fuel. If not, involved is a flywheel sensor, a Seimens box under the dash, a firing chip in the heatsink on the left front fenderwell, coil, rotor & distributor cap. Let us know & we'll run through checking these.

3. "Told it was fuel problem" The easiest way to check is to pull an injector & pull the boot on the fuel distributor. Then move the flap. The injector should spray. If this is OK & you can start with ether like JMD said, your problem is with the warm up regulator or thermo switch, 5th injector, etc. We can go through those if this is it.

924RACR · 02-17-2008, 06:55 AM

You may wish to review my thread over on 924board.org, in one of the Turbo discussion threads, about resurrecting long-dead 924 Turbos.

These fuel systems DO NOT like to sit dead. Yes, that is most likely the source of your problem, but check for spark first as noted (spare spark plug in wire, grounded against block, crank and look for a good strong spark). As drew said, if you don't have spark or it's weak, we'll have to go through that stuff. If you do have spark, it should be able to at least run for a short burst on starting fluid.

But I'd expect your problem is in the fuel area; again, drew's covered what you need to do to start diagnosing this.

Last point: don't expect to be driving this to work within a week. Most likely you'll need to flush the whole fuel system to remove all crap, including rinsing out the tank, blowing out the fuel lines with compressed air - and don't forget a new fuel filter!. There's even a 50/50 chance you'll need to replace the fuel distributor and warm-up regulator. Just preparing you for the worst right now. But you MUST take a methodical, comprehensive approach to diagnosing and fixing all the problems you will encounter in order for the car to run properly.

But take heart; it can be done, and once they're sorted out again, they're a lot of fun to drive and can be very reliable. My '82 is my daily driver all summer long...

malpaslane · 02-17-2008, 12:57 PM

Hi and thanks to all , i should have said ,i ve checked timing, spark ,compression and cleaned tank and blown lines out ,but still nothing. i,ve worked these cars for along time now, most of them non turbo and most of them non runners and within afew hours i,ll have them running, but this one is starting to drive me mad,the other night i put a different throttle housing on ,because i thought the switch maybe faulty and cleaned the manifold ,when i started the car it did cough as if it was going to start,but nthing ,so i put it down to the cleaner that it was firing on , i did think the switch was adjusted wrong as the flap was slightly open, so i put the original back on again spraying some cleaner in the manifold and when i started the car nothing this time, so was it the cleaner that made it fire or the other housing and switch and the original adjusted wrongly, i,ve also put a new fuel relay on and a new ignition switch , the other thing i,ve had with the car is that i,ve had the injectors fire when i,ve turn the key and the pump primes without cranking the engine and the injectors firing after cranking when i let the key go ,this is what i can,t understand the most, any ideas would be really helpful , many thanks again Rik....

924RACR · 02-17-2008, 02:00 PM

Your post is a little to garbled to understand all details for sure... concern here is that your fuel distributor may be gummed up. If you jumper the fuel pump relay (to run the pump w/out the engine cranking) and push down on the air flow metering plate - do you get fuel spray from the injectors?

Will the fuel pump run if you jump the pump relay? If so, will the engine run?

The pump relay on the turbos must have a good tach signal to run, and grounds through the overboost switch on the pressure duct (intake before the throttle body). If these small electrical connections are not reliable, the thing will never run.

If you jump the fuel pump relay and the car runs, you're not getting a good tach signal from the DITC (ignition controller).

Often the overboost switch will fail; if it does, it will fail open (no circuit). If you jump that to ground and the car runs, then that switch is dead. It's easily replaced, easy to get to and superceded with a 993 part. It's also easy to check with an ohmmeter/multimeter.

I recommend you start by jumping the fuel pump relay, see if she'll run. Then at least you should know the pump is running or not.

malpaslane · 02-17-2008, 02:24 PM

Hi, fuel pump runs fine ,i put a new pump on when i got the car as the original didn,t work, i,ve tried the jumper and it doesn,t run ,i havn,t tried the jumper wire and pushing on the plate yet ,but i have pushed plate without jumper wire in and i get fuel to the injectors, as for the over boost switch ,that,s the one in the pipe from turbo to throttle housing ,i did fit the pipe from the other car when i tried the throttle housing and switch, because the switch looked in better condition,so perhaps that was what was making the engine cough and not the others or the cleaner i sprayed, because i never fitted it when i changed the housing back, thanks for the idea i,ll try it tomorrow. many thanks...

924RACR · 02-17-2008, 05:19 PM

If you jumper the relay properly, it should run regardless whether or not the plate is lifted - the plate only controls flow to the injectors.

Yes, the overboost switch is in the pipe from the turbo to the throttle body (aka pressure duct). But grounding it will bypass it, regardless of whether or not it works. But you don't need to ground it to jumper the relay.

drew1 · 02-17-2008, 08:23 PM

Seems like you have spark to the plugs since it coughed will cranking. You have fuel comiing through bthe injectors.

From memory it will crank with the boost switch open then die. Do as Vaughan suggests & ground the connector. Seems like I had my wife driving for a couple of weeks with the wire connected to a spade terminal then grounded though a ring terminal though a bolt on the motor.
Told her not to get on it. Ohm this boost switch out.

Another thing kind of tricky is the rotor under the distributor cap. I think it is susposed to ohm out betweem 1 & 1.5K. It might then it might not. Found a bad rotor in wife's car when after a few cold beers replaced it with the one from the 009 distributor in my 914. I don't like that black stuff Bosch puts in the rotors.

Hey, pay attention to Vaughan. If he is who I think he is from 924.org, he runs Nasa &SCCA & knows these cars.

malpaslane · 02-18-2008, 01:47 PM

ok, i,ve put jumper wire in the relay terminals and injectors start to squeak and a very small amount of fuel comes out, but when i push plate down the injectors fire as they should, with a fine missed of fuel. i had to push the plate quiet frim to get it to go down, i did test and ground the pressure switch,but it was all ok. i,ve now taken the fuel distributor back off and the piston seems not to move freely as it should ,even after washing in clean fuel again,so i,m fairly sure that this is the problem,but the only thing i still can,t understand is why do the injectors squeak after i let the key go, after cranking it over when i,ve got the relay in place, i seem to have so much fuel pressure ,that after cranking the engine over fuel starts to come passed the coppers washers on the banjo bolts. i have another distributor that i bought off ebay that seems ok ,but it has an extra port,so must be USA spec . can i plug this extra hole, just to try it or wouldn,t that a good idea, many thanks again...

924RACR · 02-18-2008, 07:24 PM

It's conceivable the control pressure may be too high... if you had gauges that would allow you to confirm...

But did you try to start the car with the fuel relay jumped??? It doesn't sound like you did.

If you did, and no luck, then next step would be to check baseline fuel mixture setting - may not be correct (due to incorrect control pressure, possibly, which will be caused by a bad warm-up regulator).

I would not rush to change that fuel distributor out, based on what you've described - sounds like it's working properly, though perhaps not adjusted correctly.

If you're hearing fuel flow (the screaming injectors) as soon as the pump comes on, your mixture is probably rich for one reason or another. Of course, this can result (after a long time of no-start) in the gas washing down the cylinder walls and diluting your oil. So you will probably need to change your oil as soon as you get her running. Be careful doing so - you'll end up taking a dirty gas/oil mixture bath when you pull the plug! But it'll need to be done, if your oil is contaminated.

Can you tell we've been through this a few times before?

Drew is correct, I am the same 924RACR from 924.org, and do race and play with these cars regularly (though just running SCCA now, not NASA any more)... Cheers, mate!

malpaslane · 02-19-2008, 12:01 AM

Hi, yes i,ve tried to start the engine with the jumper in and nothing, the amount of pressure on top of the distributor piston seems so much that i can,t see how the plate would move on it,s own ,as i do have to press it quiet firm to get to go down,seems like the pressure is holding the piston down so won,t let it raise to let the fuel to the injectors,I do have some gauges,but i,haven,t got the connections for the warm up reg to the distributor, i,m trying to make something up from some old fuel lines,so i can test,the other question is how do i get the mixture setting right if car won,t start, i,ve read on here that you have to jumper relay and crack open one bolt or all bolts on the distributor and adjust till it just comes out the top ,is this correct, many thanks again....Rik.

924RACR · 02-19-2008, 08:12 AM

Yeah - the pressure you are pushing against is the control pressure, so that is likely too high.

Here's a consideration; while the control pressure is determined by the warm-up regulator, if the return line to the tank is blocked, it cannot regulate pressure properly. So it wouldn't hurt to disconnect the fuel return line and blow compressed air through to make sure it's clear.

Anyway, yes, your memory is correct about the base mixture setting; you completely remove one of the injector lines from the top of the fuel distributor, turn on the fuel pump with a jumper, and slowly turn the mixture to rich until fuel just starts to trickle out the open port.

Since your mixture is already on the rich side it seems, it wouldn't hurt to give it maybe 1 full turn (360 deg) to the lean first (CCW) before you turn on the pump - or you'll have fuel everywhere!!

OT, as a Welshman you may appreciate this!
http://www.vaughanscott.com/Helmet/helmet_design.htm

malpaslane · 02-19-2008, 08:33 AM

Hi, i,ve already blown down the return pipe as i thought it could be blocked and it was fine , i,ve also taken the return pressure control piston out of the fuel distributor and cleaned that , but still no luck. I,ve taken a warm up reg from the other car i have (this car ran ,but not great ) and it was the same ,so maybe that,s no good as well . I think maybe it the warm up reg, i have tested the ohms on the unit and it,s 20 ohms,which i think is right. what do you think. again thanks for your help and ideas. by the way nice hat , does this mean your a long lost welshman......

924RACR · 02-19-2008, 11:39 AM

OK, good, you've covered the bases well...

The resistance test doesn't sound exactly right; I seem to recall them being more like 5 ohms or so. But that doesn't really matter; the only test that matters is the pressure test.

So I would recommend just trying to get the mixture readjusted to that base starting setting, as discussed, and see if she'll start... and try to get the pressure gauge working!

(Yes, I am a long-long Welshman! On my father's side...)

drew1 · 02-19-2008, 05:21 PM

You all Welshmen got this car fired up?

malpaslane · 02-20-2008, 12:23 AM

not yet, but tonight, could be the night.........

drew1 · 02-20-2008, 04:56 AM

Hoping to hear good news

924RACR · 02-20-2008, 05:17 AM

Just keep the basics covered - remember spark, fuel, air!

Have you confirmed that the fuel pump is truly running when you crank the car?? As in, have a friend crank while you go back to it and feel/listen for vibrations?

I usually prefer to just jumper the relay when I'm trying to get a car started, to eliminate potential common failure points. You need to eliminate variables, here...