To belt or not to belt...

[jerry920]

That is the question.

I have a 1984 944 with 35,000 miles. I have no maintenance records on it at all. The engine compartment is immaculate, which means nothing to the question at hand. The water pump appears to be an upgraded model as I can see the block off elbow on the front. If that doesn't indicate an upgraded pump, let me know, I am still new to these cars.

From what I have read, in the absence of any records, there is no way to be sure that the timing belt has been replaced. There is no inspection, no readings, no check you can make. would that be correct?

I'm just trying to decide if I have a few months to enjoy the car first or if I should just have them replaced ASAP.

With the mileage and condition of the water pump I wonder if I can skip the water pump this time and just do the belts.

[mikepellegrini]

It really and truly has only 35K on it? Jeeze! That's a find. Nearly new. Congratulations.

The maintenance interval is 45 K miles for the belts, but with this, it's over 20 years old, so you just never will know how long the belts have been on.

http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/eng-04.htm

Rubber does degrade with time. It cracks and becomes brittle.

I'd do it right away, just as a precaution. With that many miles, the rollers and the water pump are probably okay, but I'd inspect the rollers just to make sure (see how they roll).

It's good insurance - I'd hate to let it go then have one of the belts snap (or lose teeth and slip, which is more common).

If you do it yourself, it'll cost less than $100. If you let it go and it turns out you guessed wrong, then maybe you're looking at $1,000-1,500.

[Dantilla]

You will enjoy the car even more if you know you don't have a belt that may let go at any time.

[chrenan]

I could care less if the owner gave me a receipt saying he did the belts yesterday, I never trust a guy selling me a car. Do the belts.

[earlr85944]

do the belt, check the rollers and pump while its off, pump should be fine

[jerry920]

That does it for me. I am going to order the belt today and get on that.

Thanks everyone!

[white944cup]

Make that "belts".......replace the balance shaft belt at the same time. If the balance shaft belt goes, it will take out your timing belt with it.

[jerry920]

Originally Posted by white944cup

Make that "belts".......replace the balance shaft belt at the same time. If the balance shaft belt goes, it will take out your timing belt with it.

I ordered both yesterday. Now I just got to find a local place that can do them properly. I'd do it, but I have no garage and it's 33 degrees outside this morning. A stiff belt is not a well tensioned belt.

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by jerry920

I ordered both yesterday. Now I just got to find a local place that can do them properly. I'd do it, but I have no garage and it's 33 degrees outside this morning. A stiff belt is not a well tensioned belt.

Reading the previous posts, it is assumed you would be doing the replacement yourself. I have found that shops prefer to supply the belts (most parts) in addition to charging you for the labor. You may not have this problem if you purchased Contitech belts as they are the OEM standard. If the belts are of another brand they may not guarantee the work and if failure occurs, blame the belts.
An interesting post: New Timing Belt Tool?

Congratulations on your find.

John_AZ
1988 924S 58.6K + 1987 924S 128K DD
1979 924 + 1977.5 924 + 1970 914 + MG Midget--gone, past tutors

[Dougster]

Yes, Congrats on this low mile example. I agree with everyone, you MUST take care of the belts ASAP...
Then you can enjoy her fully!

[steveu812]

Jerry920 - Is the car that Burnt Orange one I'd seen for sale in the DC area?

BTW - NO question - do the belts! Even if it were kept in a clean room for the past 20 years, I'd replace the belts.

[jerry920]

Originally Posted by steveu812

Jerry920 - Is the car that Burnt Orange one I'd seen for sale in the DC area?

BTW - NO question - do the belts! Even if it were kept in a clean room for the past 20 years, I'd replace the belts.

I picked this one up in FL.

I have the belts on order. John, they are Contitech, but that was pure luck, I just so happened to order them.

Still up in the air about doing it myself. I spent years rebuilding diesel engines, so I can handle a wrench. But that was in a well lit shop with all tools, engine stands, the works.

I've looked at Clarks Garage and Arnnworx and the process looks easy enough. The tools kind of confuse me though. Unless I buy the 9201 ($) I would use the Kirkit tools. The thin wrench,what else would I need?

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by jerry920

I picked this one up in FL.

I have the belts on order. John, they are Contitech, but that was pure luck, I just so happened to order them.

Still up in the air about doing it myself. I spent years rebuilding diesel engines, so I can handle a wrench. But that was in a well lit shop with all tools, engine stands, the works.

I've looked at Clarks Garage and Arnnworx and the process looks easy enough. The tools kind of confuse me though. Unless I buy the 9201 ($) I would use the Kirkit tools. The thin wrench,what else would I need?

Disclaimer--Yeah I know..........

Krikit will get pretty close for the balance belt. There is no 28# mark but just get below the 30# mark. The black foot/marker has to be on top of a belt ridge every time you test and if possible go to the same place every time you test 10 to 20 trys should be enough and your hand will be numb by then as well.

Krikit is difficult or impossible to do with the cam belt.

Thin wrench-nice to have but I use a thin cresent and no problems.

Cam Belt tool, what to use? www.arnnworx.com has a tool that many like.

Since you are a diesel wrench----do it yourself and get the Porsche P9201 tool sent to you from our kind member Nick===many944s. He will put you on the list and send it to you. Here is his website: http://www.benms.com/

Send him a PM from this forum.

GL
John_AZ

[jerry920]

So far so good....
It's not near as hard as I had it set up in my mind to be. Only took an hour to get it all torn down and ready for the new belts.

Besides any obvious things with the chipped rollers, seals etc., is there anything else I should check while I have the covers off?

[John_AZ]

When you wiped the inside engine belt cover lower bottom below the crank pully, was the rag oily? did you see a puddle of oil? Yes and it is time to change the crank seal and oil pump sleeve.

No go to step two.
Check the WP in the car using these steps in paragraph 2:
http://www.arnnworx.com/h2o-pump.htm

Step 3. Since you did not mention the rollers-check to see if any feel gritty or seem to have other bad sounds. All should be changed if you do not have documentation.

Step 4. Some/many owners say you should replace the tensioner stud.
http://www.944online.com/cgi-bin/ASI_Store.cgi?Product+skukey_1169069503+9441+engin e-9441

These should be a few points to look for.

GL
John_AZ

[jerry920]

Originally Posted by John_AZ

When you wiped the inside engine belt cover lower bottom below the crank pully, was the rag oily? did you see a puddle of oil? Yes and it is time to change the crank seal and oil pump sleeve.

No go to step two.
Check the WP in the car using these steps in paragraph 2:
http://www.arnnworx.com/h2o-pump.htm

Step 3. Since you did not mention the rollers-check to see if any feel gritty or seem to have other bad sounds. All should be changed if you do not have documentation.

Step 4. Some/many owners say you should replace the tensioner stud.
http://www.944online.com/cgi-bin/ASI_Store.cgi?Product+skukey_1169069503+9441+engin e-9441

These should be a few points to look for.

GL
John_AZ

Thanks for the tips John, I really appreciate it!

Nope, no oil, just some loose dust.

WP is the updated model, I don't see any leakage, weepage or seepage anywhere. But I'll look at all the points indicated just to be sure I didn't miss any of them.

Again thanks!

[jerry920]

OK, got everything in and adjusted. Started and runs well but whines. Not howls, just whines. I don't have any of the covers on, and both the timing and counterbalance belts are brand new. Looking in the forums it appears that a new belt can whine, but I don't want to close it up until I am sure everything is perfect.

Reaching in I can roll the balance belt 1/2 way.

I used the Arnnworx tool and everything was within spec. Should I recheck the balance belt or will the whine subside?

Added Notes: I don't have any other belts on except the timing and balance.

[Dtchy]

Originally Posted by jerry920

OK, got everything in and adjusted. Started and runs well but whines. Not howls, just whines. I don't have any of the covers on, and both the timing and counterbalance belts are brand new. Looking in the forums it appears that a new belt can whine, but I don't want to close it up until I am sure everything is perfect.

Reaching in I can roll the balance belt 1/2 way.

I used the Arnnworx tool and everything was within spec. Should I recheck the balance belt or will the whine subside?

Added Notes: I don't have any other belts on except the timing and balance.

Just note that the balance belt must be set WAAAAAAY looser than the timing belt. I made this mistake also when I did my belts for the first time and had the balance belt set as tight as the timing belt. I got a horrible whine also.
So I had it tensioned properly at a shop.

[John_AZ]

Jerry,

ARIZONA CARDINALS WON!!!

Sorry, just had to say it.

If you have the new belts adjusted per Arnnworx, close it up and let the belts "settle" in the pulley grooves. Dtchy is correct about the sloppyness of the balance belt adjustment and the whine should not be loud. A new balance belt needs to loosen up a bit with the engine running. You can always go back in and practice some more.

Nice work.

John_AZ

[TibetanT]

I am coming late to this party, but I would have to admit that a flywheel lock is a good tool to have in the tool box as well. That way, if you have to go back in to replace your waterpump with a new one, or a rebuilt, you can do the job gracefully and quickly.

The whine could mean your belts are tensioned too tight. This is where the Porsche Factory P9201 tool pays for itself the first time out of the box IMHO. And, if you purchase one when the U.S. dollar is higher than the UK pound, you win!

Also, if the water pump is not new and you have tensioned a new timing belt to specifications 4.0 plus or minus .3 using the P9201, the water pump will fail at some point and seize. The latter fact will cause you a lot of grief and ruin all your good work.

I am not trying to rain on your parade, however, I have found honesty to be the best policy in the long run. Just my .02 cents.

Good luck.