911 owner with 944 questions

[S2GART]

Hi everyone,

I have a friend who is interested in getting a Porsche, but doesn't want to spend the "entry" fee to get into a 911. I spotted a couple 944s at a local used car lot that deals excluively in VW/Audi/Porsches. One is a 1986 944 with 129K miles. The other is a 944S with about 63K on the clock.

What does the 944S have over the 944? For the "regular" 944, is 129K something to worry about, what things should I/she look out for? The asking price for this 944 is $5,995. The lot was closed, so I have not spoken with anyone about the car. How long do these 2.5 engines last?

The 944S did not have a window sticker on it, so I don't know what year that particular car is, nor the asking price.

Personally I have always liked the look of the 944s, though I have never driven one.

I really don't know much about the 944s other than the gearbox is in the back for balance and that the engine is literally half of the 928's engine.

So, any information you can provide for someone that is looking to get into one of these, would be greatly appreciated. This is really for a friend, as my wife won't give a green light to buy another Porsche.

Thanks

[ilikemy944]

I had well over 200k on an n/a - not sure exactly as the odo broke around 180k. I bought this when I was 17 so it endured much abuse.

The S has a 16v head and about 30 more hp - it is more peaky but is geared differently and realy isn't much quicker than the n/a. The S also has a little cam chain in the head that needs to have the tensioner checked regularly. If it lets go, it gets ugly.

[Dave L]

129k isnt much but it isnt little either. The engines are good ones provided they are looked after. With that said the maintenance history is a must otherwise you have to assume that it hasnt been done. The timing belts on these cars can and do break if they arent replaced at regular intervals. Being an interference engine a broken belt means bent valves. At $5995 I would expect a really nice car with new belts and water pump plus maybe even a new clutch.

The 944S is also a very nice car and is rated at 188HP instead of 150. The 16v engine makes more power but its mostly at the top end. The S's timing belt also needs to be changed regularly plus there is a timing chain in the head to drive the 2 cams. The chain tensioner needs to be serviced/replaced because if it wear out and breaks... bent valves. Even worse is that the 16v has twice as many valves and a more rare and expensive head if it needs replacement. I have owned both and I like my 16v.

Other than the timing belt, water pump and in the case of the 944S's cam chain tensioner all other "old" car stuff applies.

One last note, if your friend is concerned about the "entry fee" is he also concerned about the "maintenance fees"? I like my car but, like most old cars, they do require work from time to time and the maintenance can easily surpass the original purchase price.

[S2GART]

Thanks for the quick replys and the heads up. She is aware of that. She would rather spend say $6K then start paying for maintenance, versus $15K for a 70's/80's 911, then start paying for the maintenance. Granted with 911's we don't have water pumps, radiators, timing belts, power steering pumps and racks, to worry about.

Do 944's require valve adjustments? If should my friend not like the phone dial rims, can the later rims be fitted without spacers? I don't know what the later rims were called. What I ahve in mind is the flat wheel with thin slots around the perimeter.

[Dantilla]

911 vs 944:

944 advantages:

-Much easier to drive- 50/50 weight distribution
-Much more cargo room under the huge rear hatch
-Great gas mileage
-Inexpensive
-Engines well known to go 250,000 miles + without problems if maintaned

944 disadvantages:

-Interferance engine means a broken timing belt costs big bucks
-relatively inexpensive means many have not had proper care.
-Not very fast in non-turbo form (We're not comparing the S2 or 968 here)

Parts and maintenance would probably favor the standard 944 over the 944S's twin-cam head.

911 advantages:

-Absolutely bullet-proof engine, also known for long intervals between rebuilds.
-Absolutely phenominal handling, AFTER you learn to use the car's idiocyncrasies.

911 disadvantages:

-Can't really think of any......

The 944 is a great car. They are now getting pretty old, and will require continual maintenance in order to insure reliability. I currently have a 911 (Long-hooded hot-rod), a 944S, and an early 944 race car, so I'm pretty familiar with this topic.

Bottom line for both 911s and 944s: If you get a good one, you can just put gas in it and go. If you get a bad one, it will suck your checkbook dry faster than the car will go 0-60. Get a good PPI, and enjoy.

[Dantilla]

944s do not require valve adjustments.

911 and 944 wheels are interchangeable, but 944 went to late-offset in 1987, where the 911 kept the early offset through 1989.

The 1986 will need spacers to use late wheels, but they will bolt right up to the 1987 "S".

I took the phone dials off the 944S, and have a nice set of aftermarket Fikse wheels on it instead.

[modenas]

dont get the 944S they are hard to fix if that chain lets go or the belt goes.

[Dave L]

Originally Posted by modenas

dont get the 944S they are hard to fix if that chain lets go or the belt goes.

an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure

[modenas]

lol i got an 88 S and blew the belt due to age and i was never told about the belt till 2 year after trying to fix it so i gave up on the porsche engine and got a swap going on and im at the point of dropping the engine into the car now

[Steve Schubert]

I looked at both of these cars today. The 944s is perfect, great paint. The overall condition is great. I think the price for the 944s will be high at this store. As a matter of fact I was thinking of this car. I'll find out what the price is tommorrow. I would buy the 944s before the black 944 on condition only. This store does not have any history on the black 944 which is not good. I don,t know about the 944s. I would not buy without a PPI.

[Icey1174]

Check www.clarks-garage.com.

It is a must have for every 944 owner. It has a great section for people shopping for 944s and what to look for.

He will enjoy the 944 if it is his first Porsche. I love mine and mine was a train wreck when I bought it at auction with no paperwork!

[S2GART]

Steve, Hello neighbor. Do you ever travel through Vernon in your car? I don't see too many 944s around here.

Are you looking into buying one of those 944s?

Ocassionally I drive my 911 through Ellington, but there aren't enough "twisties".

[Steve Schubert]

Hi I drive through Vernon all the time. And yes I'm thinking of buying the 944s. Just got a call from Convertry Motorcar and the price is $8995.00. I live off Pinney Rd in Ellington. Hope we can get together.

[kdjones2000]

Unless that car is in perfect condition, I think that the asking price is too high.

You can get a 944 Turbo for that kind of $$$, IMO...

[S2GART]

Steve, I sent you a PM earlier today.

[slow944s]

I just bought a 944S a couple of months ago that had a lot of documentation with it but the timing belt still broke. But I new that it was a possibility going in and had ordered the timing belt kit off ebay and was waiting for it to arrive when it let go. I wasn't going real fast (only about 40) but it still did a lot of damage to the head. So I started looking for a re-man'd head and they go for about $2.5K, but I got lucky and found a new head for less money. As soon as it gets here (Friday) we'll start puting it back together. As long as your friend understands that the first order of business is change the timing belts and rollers and the chain tensioner they should have good luck with the car....Hope this helps....Jerry

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by modenas

lol i got an 88 S and blew the belt due to age and i was never told about the belt till 2 year after trying to fix it so i gave up on the porsche engine and got a swap going on and im at the point of dropping the engine into the car now

You were never told about the belt? I don't see how that possible unless you failed to do any research on the car whatsoever before you bought it. That's always one of the first cautions that anyone asking about a 944 gets.

To the OP, as others have said, if you get a good one you just put gas in and go. A rough example can test your patience and your pocketbook though. The big issue is that with a low initial purchase price many people do not realise that these cars are still Porsches and still require the requisite maintenance (and the associated costs). This leads to many 944s ending up in the hands of people who either cannot afford to keep them properly maintained, or who simply refuse to spend that kind of money on a car that cost "only" $5,000 to $6,000 to buy.

I more than doubled the purchase price of my 951 in the first two years of ownership, but the car has been relatively solid since then. It just took a bit of money to bring it back up to snuff.

Another thing to avoid is the urge to tinker. Once the car is set up and running well, it's generally best to leave well enough alone and focus on a basket-case for tinkering. Otherwise you are apt to end up with a car that is never "finished" and always having something break while you're trying to tweak the most recent "upgrade".

I've heard a lot of people talk about big plans for a 944, but all too often either the money or the desire runs out and the end of those plans is yet another 944 up on jackstands and disassembled in someone's barn.

[Razorback1980]

Here is some good reading..

http://www.connactivity.com/~kgross/FAQ/944faq.html

I bought an NA new in 1986 and sold it at 286,000 miles on it and I did have to replace a valve once because the timing belt stripped some teeth on a track one Sunday. Other than that, it was just water pumps and timing belts as far as the engine goes.

S2GART, here is my main concern. These are getting to be old cars which means they need some maintenance to keep them going. But the same is true for an old 911, isn't it? With the purchaser being a lady, if she isn't able to work on cars, does she really want to get into this? If it's constantly in the shop, is that going to be ok? If this is her only car, I would steer her away from it and buy something where parts are available quickly so when something breaks her car isn't sitting for a couple of days waiting on parts. Again, the same is true for an older 911 as well. My 944 is my second car, so I don't mind if I have to wait for some parts as I don't drive it but on weekends anyway. I would go for the better maintained of the two cars and lean toward the lower mileage one providing it has been cared for. I have an S2 now and I much prefer it over the NA but it really does come down to how well the cars have been maintained.