So is 19mm 5 way adjustable as good as I'm going to be able to get? Looks like a weltmeister or tarret bar will run north of 300

The Lindsay 19mm 5 way adjustable looks like a good bar for the price. You can get the other ones, Welt is $330 and Tarret is $475, but that is a tone of money. You also need to look at the big picture. The 968 only had a 19mm rear bar with a 30mm front. The 944 is also a well balanced car, just adding a larger rear bar will start to mess with how the car was designed to handle. I agree with the other posters who say to get a good/sporty alignment and then get better tires.

I have autocrossed my 944 for a few years now and never feel like the car is plowing unless I'm making it... If you have only done 2 autocross events, maybe do a few more and make sure to take instructors to give you advice. It may just turn out that you are a little throttle happy and the front end is de-weighting in turns... I'm not trying to start an argument, I would just think if maybe the car is just reacting to your inputs and can be fixed with more careful throttle usage before you spend money and still have an issue. I also did run performance all-season tires for both seasons, and they are not the best, but should do fine to learn with.

Good luck

My thinking with the tires is that they will make the run faster and stop wear on my good street tires. I mean they are good as all seasons but they would not keep a hold on the course. The larger rear bar should take care of the understeer. Ya the M030 had a 30mm front but it was also designed to understeer from the factory.

Go with a 26.8mm front and a 18 or 19mm rear. 3 way adjustable is fine in my opinion. Gotta remember to big a rear sway bar and spinning the inside rear wheel is going to be even worse. That is assuming your car does not have LSD (like 85% of them out there).

The 30mm is indeed a big front bar. I used the 26.8 front and really liked how the car rotated with that setup. Any larger and i think understeer would have been harder to manage.

Ya I am going to call Lindsey and have them lay one of those bars out so I can pick it up next week. So my hunt begins for a 26mm front.

adding a larger rear bar will start to mess with how the car handles . that is the point . maybe i should point out why i do testing no cars . becouse i have a degree in suspension engineering .i have worked for race teams setting up cars like 911's 962's 924carrera GTR , vw rally team and untill his death paul newman . this is what you need to do before you get new anti roll bars . go get your self some books on car setups . and learn for your self what to do . your taking someones word for what works . when the truth is you don't know how good of a driver they are nor how good the car is .

Any recommended reading? I would really like to have a good grasp of this stuff. I knew I needed to stiffen the rear but not what would be a good size bar. What do you think of that Lindsey Bar?

how to make your car handle . comes to mind as a good read . its an older book that was put out in the 1980's but so was your car . when i get to my shop i will take a look at what books i have and pass on what they are .

LOL

Ya really had me going until this post

???

Picked up the 19mm bar from Lindsey today. Ordering the tires tomorrow and then it is off for an alignment.

YOU CANT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ ON THE INTERNET :eek:

One of the VERY VERY few things that I , and poster porsche962 would agree on is that you have no idea of of the competence of the advice you are getting . Just because one poster says " this is the way it is " doesn't mean they know their arrss from another orifice on their body .

That being said , yes do read up , research , and yes do ask for advice . The best mod you can make at this time to you and your car is to get MORE seat time to tighten the loose nut behind the wheel .

On a side note , running that Lindsey Racing 19 mm bar on the rear with the 21 mm front bar will defiantly keep your next auto x ..... lets say interesting

67rschev ??? it as very common knowledge that you decrease front anti roll bar size to stop under steer . this is a fact ! why do you think most people that race front drive cars remove there front anti roll bar and start up sizing the rear bar ?????i could see you working on a race team and a driver comes in with his car pushing and you would start adding more front bar and removing rear bar . so my advice to you would be try not to be so ignorant and read up . your clearly the most ignorant person i have come across on line . you gave no good advice and only have derogatory remarks . or i should say no advice !

First who said I had a 21mm front bar? I sure didn't. 962 has proven that he knows what is going on. I came into this knowing I needed more rear bar. I just didn't know how much. As far as the alignment I just have to take his word but seeing as several trusted members have agreed I think I am in good hands.



rschev. I would suggest you play nicely for more than 10posts before you start out and out attacking members.

suspension setting is all about balance and completing a package

sway bar sizing is entirely dependent on spring rates - too stiff of a sway bar for the springs and you end up with a car on marbles - you won't feel it putting around on the street, and may not at the relatively low speeds of an autocross - take it out on the track, and toss it into a hairpin corner at 100mph, and you easily find an entirely different story

other factors like camber angles, toe set, ride height, and corner weighting also play heavily into the equation

nobody can give you a good recommendation on sway bar size without a lot more information

by the way, there are larger bars than the 30mm front and 19mm rear out there too - i have a 32mm front and a 22mm rear on my 968, but i have the springs and suspension to make that work

porshce4life my apologys for pissing back at 67rschev on your posting . this was the first and last time i will get in a pissing match . i try not to reply to peoples posting becouse of people like chev . i have to remember people like him have nothing and are nothing so to make him self look bigger he trys to make other people look smaller .

i think porsche 4 life is talking about his bone STOCK car ? if your racing it in a stock only class then you have to put out of your mind changing to performance up grades to stay in class . you can only post date and predate the things porsche offered for that chassis . which is 924 to 968 . and that brings me full circle to find the smallest front bar and the biggest rear bar .

Ya it is bone stock. So the M030 works. Now the local PCA doesn't get too technical. In fact there are no classes. Now if I go to the SCCA I will be classed.

i have never auto-x with the pca . only with scca and a like. all clubs i have raced with did class the cars .

The PCA usually does classes but my region is small enough that it doesn't matter so its just easier to run them all. We aren't super competitive.

fwiw, I believe to stay in a stock class you can only interchange parts that were offered for YOUR SPECIFIC car's year/model.. Meaning if M030 was an option for your year car you can add those, if not, than you can not add those bigger bars and still be stock. Same for koni suspension, etc.

Of course your local region may have different rules.


Also, I have autocrossed my car a few times, its an 81 931. I have 250# springs, stock shocks, lowered rear and 17" wheels with 205/255 combo. No rear sway bar, and it also pushes like a mo fo. I just added a 19mm rear with the stock front bar. Also going to add some negative camber in the front as I'm sure that would help.

Sorry I ruffled your feathers , i only had stated that i agreed with you on that some of the advice that one can get on these forums is sometimes BAD advice and that taking one persons take on something as LAW is foolish .

I also agree with the 15 wheel selection , as 16s and larger carry to much mass for the 150 HP na to drive . The trade offs aren't beneficial enough to run the big wheel tire combo . 710 s are a great choice with great grip as they seem to heat cycle out , before they wear out . A6s are awesome , and the 44 seems to enjoy the 45 profile more than the 50 series of the Kumhos , but they wear out twice as fast . If money is no object , Hoosiers all day .

Now i disagree with you, as i gave the OP the the best advice any one could give him , which is seat time , seat time , and more seat time . That will improve his times more than anything you could do to the car .

Now we all understand that the more front bar will induce more under-steer . You had stated in an earlier post that you would put on a smaller front sway to help with the big push . With factory spring rates of around 130 # , you are gonna want all the front bar you can get , as well as if the OP is running SCCA , dampers and a front bar is all he can change . One can work around this by freeing up the car in other ways ..... Yeah , I'm all for a larger sway on the rear if allowable , but in the OP's earlier post he stated he didn't even know how the car was equiped as far as sways go . Installing a 19 mm bar in the rear on a car with anything less than a 25.5 would be sketchy at best . She'll turn all right , and keep turning . 25.5 18 works well and 26.8 19 work well . The front Welt and Tarret bars will work that i have been told , but i have no experience with either of the hi dollar units . I'm not quite sure where you got or you could get a 24mm or 26 mm rear sway from , maybe you were thinking of a 40 / 60 rear engine Porsche s ?.

As far as for alignment #s , the pyrometer tells all . At the -1.5 that you stated , the shoulders of the tires will suffer and overheat . -2 to - 2.8 is more in the ballpark for a stock sprung , stock a-arm car and will have even tire temps . -3 is pushing it . I would Max out the caster as well for stability .

Now , i learned at an early age that FWD sucks , ( My beloved Big-Wheel trike with the uber cool ebrake that when applying power to the pedals , would not steer ) and i have never set up a FWD , But Toe out will help with turn - in on a RWD . Out 1/8 to 3/16 but beware that toe will eat tires so learn to read a tape measure , to make race day adjustments .

These cars have alot of throttle induced oversteer with the geometry changes in the rear with unloading and braking of the chassis , and you can use that to an advantage in auto X . Be brave , and try 0 toe out in the rear . I run just a smidge out in the rear at 1/8 tank of fuel and it sits at 0 with 1/2 tank for auto x and the car WILL TURN . Brake very early and strait and turn with the throttle . About -2 camber is acceptable , any more and its rear tire roasting city . On the track , rear toe in 1/8 .

I'm gonna go back to my NOTHING , cause I have NOTHING and disregard all of this mumbo jumbo , as its most likely that bad advice i was talking about . Actually I'm gonna go back out to the shop and finish installing my new Godspeed Radiator (OMG its beautiful , i almost hate to hide it under the hood ) and Stewart water pump in the M3 . Gotta get here done , so i can get the Camaro back in .

Good Luck Guys ! See ya in Lincoln SmileWavy

No attacks here at all . Sorry you both saw it as an attack , I was just trying to help . I suppose my first post was off the mark and i apologize and i should have just come out with my disagreements .

Also , some more advice . Just cause someones post count is low , doesn't mean they don't know doodle . I would much rather trust someone with a lower post count who has been a member for some length of time over someone who has 10000 posts in a year . If they post , its usually worth while . I don't play here , usually only in the classifieds and the BMW side . I was looking for a member for some Micro Squirt base maps and stumbled on this thread .

Sorry again , and I'll go back to my Bubble

Well, glad we got that all taken care of. Groupe hug. AND Now! Back to our normal programing. btw great thread, plenty of good stuff here.

Oh on a random side note I have decided to hold off on tires for a few more events. I am still going to do an alignment but I need to put the tire money elsewhere at the moment.

Ok so the alignment and bar helped tons. Went out the the night before and helped layout the track so I got even more seat time. Once or twice it tryed to come all the way around but overall it was good. Held pretty nicely on the 100' radius skid pad we set up. Oh RS seat time helped but the front end going where I wanted it too instead of plowing forwards helped even more.

Looks like due to a friend of a friend deal I am going to be running on some RA-1s 205 50 15....


Any changes need made to that alignment. Some odd wear on my street tires won't bother me...