Hemorraghing Oil

alfadoc · alfadoc's Garage

My '86 NA is hemorraghing oil from the front of the engine, passenger side. The previous owner, in Aug '04, at approximately 140K miles, had water pump, timing belt, balancer belt, and t-belt tensioner replaced. Included on the repair order is a "front seal kit", for $65.00. Now, at only 154K, I'm facing doing this all over again. Frankly, I'm feeling a little cheated. I'm assuming from the location that it's the lower balancer seal. This is my 1st 944, and I haven't delved into the engine yet. I am an experienced Alfa Romeo tech, so I have no fear. I just gotta get that belt tensioner tool. Should I be looking anywhere else for this leak?

Also odd...I just changed the oil. This car has been run all it's life on Castrol GTX, so I've been sticking with that. This time though, I think I bought the "high mileage" stuff, which undoubtedly has a seal sweller in it. Did it swell something too much?

Frustrating.

Joel Hailey
Denver, CO

choinga · 11:18 PM

ugh - you gotta be careful what fluids you put in these cars...you're not driving around an old Ford truck here...

First of all, I know the 951 needs oil with higher ZDDP levels - I use Brad Penn Racing Oil but others use Mobil 1 or other brands that have ZDDP additives or add them if their oil doesn't have them (or enough). I'm pretty sure the NA is the same requirements.

You don't mention where the oil is coming from other than the front passenger side - not enough detail...but I'm sure the crappy high mileage stuff didn't help it out any. I've read nothing but bad things from folks who used fluids other than those designed specifically for these engines. It's definitely not something you want to take risks with...especially when you're talking a few bucks at oil change time.

Found this btw...

Quote:

At this time, late October 2006, it appears that our old staple, Castrol, has reduced the ZDDP in GTX to about half what it used to be. The safest bet right now seems to be either the use of Redline (synthetic) or Valvoline VR1. Today I purchased 7 quarts of Valvoline VR1 20W-50 at AutoZone for $2.79/quart.

http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm

alfadoc · alfadoc's Garage

I did say passenger side, at the front. Seems to be in the vicinity of the belts. And it's not Walmart oil, it's friggin' Catrol GTX, which I've used since I started playing with British cars as a teen in the 70's.

choinga · 11:04 AM

It doesn't matter how expensive the oil is or what brand name it has on the box - if the ZDDP levels aren't right and it's got 'high mileage' on the bottle, it ain't right for this car. FWIW, that link I posted looks like they are referencing MG's and are concerned about the ZDDP levels in GTX and of course, recommend not using it anymore. Not sure why you'd think that oil you've been using in a 70's british car has to be good for a 80's german car, but I digress...

I don't know if it's even part of the problem - but based on what I've read and what I quoted in the previous post - it shouldn't be in there. When I bought my 951 one of the first things that I did was change the oil - I read countless threads from a number of different sites trying to figure out what the best oil was to use in my engine. I use a more expensive synthetic in my 2001 Ford truck - it's great in there, but certainly doesn't mean I'd use it in my 951.

If you want real help you need to get in there with a camera or something and post a pic where the leak is coming from. We can't read your mind.

HondaDustR · 12:29 PM

Anything with an API SM rating should be avoided like the plague. SL is a bit sketchy, as well. Even Mobil 1 is not appropriate by itself these days. Brad Penn, Amsoil, and Red Line are all good alternatives.
I've never heard anything good about ANY high milage seal conditioner additives for anything...AC, power steering, transmissions, you name it. It's just a cheap "fix" that always seems to cause more problems than it solves.

The ZDDP crisis is actually a pretty big deal for any older motor that runs flat tappet/lifter valve train. Search Pelican for "Ultimate motor oil thread".

I actually found this place just last night that has a bunch of good articles that pretty much sums it all up.
http://www.rlengines.com/Web_Pages/Tech.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by choinga

It doesn't matter how expensive the oil is or what brand name it has on the box - if the ZDDP levels aren't right and it's got 'high mileage' on the bottle, it ain't right for this car. FWIW, that link I posted looks like they are referencing MG's and are concerned about the ZDDP levels in GTX and of course, recommend not using it anymore. Not sure why you'd think that oil you've been using in a 70's british car has to be good for a 80's german car, but I digress...

It's a freaking 4 cyl motor, not a rocket ship. Quality oil of the correct weight with the correct additives to protect the valvetrain is all that's important for any engine, and I would not be surprised if the old British motors have the same problems needing enough ZDDP to protect the cam and lifters as the 944's do. Granted, people have favorites, but at the end of the day, this is what it all boils down to.

The oil leak could be alot of things, including the front cam seals, or the lower balance shaft seals not being installed correctly. It could also be worn shaft sleaves that were not replaced that have eaten up the new seals. It could also be that the lower balance shaft did not get the correct seal installed (they are rotational direction specific, and the two shafts spin in opposite directions from each other). It could also be the oil cooler housing gasket, which is an integral gasket that not only contains the main housing seal to seal the coolant area for the oil cooler, but also has two other smaller seals that seal main oil passageways that are subjected to full oil pressure. Could also be the front corner of the oil pan gasket, but not as likely. Hard to say for sure, since all of these are in the same general area, and all leak to the same location. It could even be the cam housing gasket leaking up front, which also seals pressurized oil passageways that feed the cam bearings and hydraulic lifters. You'll have to climb under and try to trace the mess. It may need to be cleaned up first to be able to get a good idea of what's leaking if it's been going on awhile. Oil creeps uphill to some extent and attracts road grime like crazy as you probably know.

alfadoc · alfadoc's Garage

"If you want real help you need to get in there with a camera or something and post a pic where the leak is coming from. We can't read your mind."

How much more specific than the passenger lower front of the engine in the vicinity of the belts would you like me to be? If I'd had the opportunity to get in there far enough to take a photo of where the leak is coming from, then obviously I'd be SEEING the location of the leak.

And I thought the Alfa Digest was full of attitude. I'm done here.

zedsn · 08-22-2009, 12:03 PM

The balance shaft oil seals are not the same. They are directional. Maybe the prior owner installed them incorrectly and it took 5 years to finally leak. I wouldn't think that it would be a gusher even with a cam seal going. Maybe your front main is the culprit. Take your front cover off the belts and inspect. Let us know what you find out.

Icey1174 · 08-22-2009, 12:13 PM

I say this is nothing more then a group of people setting off a "Red Scare."

Come open up my engine with high mileage Valvoline Synthetic Blend. Your will find the cleanest engine with very minimal wear for 150K miles. My camshaft looks brand new so do the piston heads and cylinder walls. I guess the PO could have totally rebuilt the engine, but I really doubt it.

TOO much scare about oil. Use a reputable name and a reasonable and recommended weight and you will be fine with the oil.

150K original miles and a VERY strong running car is good, right?

choinga · 08-22-2009, 12:18 PM

Apologies - didn't mean to be rude...just asking for more info or you'll get a response like Honda's that basically says get under there and look. For what it's worth...

What is ZDDP level of Castrol GTX 20W50?

"The previous owner of my car was pretty religious about oil changes and used castrol GTX only. Well - my exhaust valves were all worn and had to be replaced. The case was stained amber color, my layshaft bearings were showing copper, my cams were pitted. 5 rocker arms had to be replaced because they were showing too much wear. This is on an engine with 56K miles."

""Thank you for contacting Castrol,

Castrol North America does not manufacture GTX in a 20w-40 grade.

The latest API SM/ILSAC GF-4 category calls for reduced Zinc and Phosphorus levels to allow extended catalyst life in current model vehicles. There appear to be field issues associated with the SM/GF-4 oil's level of antiwear in the classic car engines known as flat tappet cam engines. The current late model passenger car engines are not flat tappet cam engines and have no reported field issues related to the level of antiwear chemistry in the SM/GF-4 oils.

Product Recommendations for Flat Tappet (Solid Lifter) Cam Engines:
Castrol Syntec 20W-50 (Recent reformulation identified by "Recommended for Classic Cars" text on back label) (min Zn = 0.12 = 1200 ppm)(full synthetic)

Castrol Consumer Relations"

HondaDustR · 08-22-2009, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zedsn

The balance shaft oil seals are not the same. They are directional. Maybe the prior owner installed them incorrectly and it took 5 years to finally leak. I wouldn't think that it would be a gusher even with a cam seal going. Maybe your front main is the culprit. Take your front cover off the belts and inspect. Let us know what you find out.

Come to think of it, if it is "gushing", check the oil cooler seals I mentioned already, since they do seal the main oil passageways from the oil pump output. Mine was making a pretty good mess, and I crawled under there with the motor running and saw oil obviously flowing from that area. Highlighted in red here.

BTW, welcome to the board. See www.clarks-garage.com for lots of good repair procedures in the "garage shop manual" on the left bar.

Techno Duck · Techno Duck's Garage

Hope this dosent set you off, most people are pretty pleasant and helpful. Like all forums you need to filter what's useful and what is correct.

I think some read a little too much into the oil content thing. The zinc content is true but it's not goingto cause your engine to explode over night. I was a long time user of castrol (and yes it was that high mileage crap

) in my n/a. My 951 gets Redline mostly because it holds pressure well even at high temps when on the track. For a daily driver it won't make a difference what brand you use.

Regarding your leak, Pretty much all summed up what it could be already. Front balance shaft, front cam shaft and the oil cooler. The oil cooler could be from the pressure relief or the pressure sending unit. Usually if the oil cooler housing leaks it will be coolant, oil will leak internally and give you a milk shake in the expansion tank or pan.

Make sure it's not power steering fluid also, alot that can leak from that side of the car.