Should I buy this '88 944?

[howdo]

I am trying to decide if I should purchase a 1988 944, and what a fair price would be. The car is 150 miles away, so I have only looked at online pics and texted/talked with the seller. Initially, I was excited about the car because from what I can see it is rust free and the interior is excellent. Pictures with the little grill removed in B pillar show no rust on sills. The inner rear quarters (by lifting up the truck carpet) looks great. However, the service history is mostly unknown. Here's the only info from the carfax:

Nov 2007 62,069 miles
Sept 2010 84,631 miles
Sept 2020 85,421 miles (purchased by current owner)

today: 89,000 miles

Previous owner from 2010-2020 apparently had a car collection, and only drove the 944 periodically (800 miles in 10 years). It was stored in a garage, and wasn’t driven in the winters. Limited service records from this time for things like brakes, a/c recharge, and timing belt inspection.

Current owner (since 2020) has replaced the front struts, fuel pump, fuel filter, starter and battery (did the work himself). Also drained the fuel tank and fuel lines looked good (not rusty). The current owner is a older DIY mechanic (like me) that seems to have a lot of experience working on cars. No idea if timing belt or clutch has ever been replaced.

The tires have a lot of tread left but are dry rotted, so I would need to replace them. Also, I would need to do the timing belt/water pump service before I even drove it.

Should I be concerned about the lack of service records?

What is a fair price?

[wwdwgs]

Hi,
Service records are good. Knowledgeable and "caring" DIY'er are also good.
Assume that the timing belt (and balance belts) with all related parts (water pump, idlers, thermostat, hoses) needs to be replaced.
I wold start the car and see how it runs - I know, it could be fatal if TB is bad. You could inspect the tB area by removing TB cover (top - about 8-10 screws).
If you want to risk it, drive it a bit.
Depending on the price and overall condition (exterior and interior - DASHBOARD), it could be a good purchase.

I bought mine with all "wrong" conditions - no TB known condition, flat tires, cracked windshield, damaged hood, almost no records.... but I "concentrated" and bought it.

You must see it in person... pictures could be "deceiving".

What's the price? Most would say less than 8K, probably about 5K..... There are two 944 (1987) in my area, still sitting and collecting dust - they are priced at 18K and 12K, although, the latter is in a very good condition (from the pictures).

Good luck with your pursuit.

EDIT, if this car has NO sunroof, that's a huge plus (advantage). Ask all the folks whose cars are with sunroofs and how much time, labor and money are invested in dealing with sunroof leaks, operations, parts, etc.

[onrails]

might have somthing that youd be interested in. 1987 944S-16v. Very good condition. 3rd owner, full leather, ive owned it for 21 years, been garaged the past 10. Again this is the S model. you can see pics if a serious offer/person is involved, just ask. Ive had my time wasted before on other things. Passed inspection, A/C needs charged, everthing els is stock except the stereo, 1100Wat custom that can be removed upon reqest.

[mazdaverx7]

If the car has an unknown service history, plan on doing the belts, water pump, front seals, oil cooler seals, AOS seals, oil change, trans oil replacement, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, etc. You'll have about $2000 in parts if you buy quality parts. If you plan on tacking the job yourself, there are a few specialty tools that will help immensely with the belt job that you'll want to buy.

The clutch could go either way. It may help fine or you may be seeing degradation of the rubber centered disc if it's original. youll know either way soon after you drive the car.

The fuel feel line on the rail should be replaced right away, as should the feed and return hoses that run from the passenger side wheel well to the rail. While you're in there, youll want to replace the fuel injector o-rings as well. These cars are notorious for fuel leaks and fires from old fuel lines. The probelm is that the lines run over top of the exhaust headers and when the lines fail, gas is immediately dumped onto the hot headers and you will lose your car to the fire.

In closing, I would be very excited to buy the car. It appears to be in wonderful condition and appears to be well cared for. I don't see any cracks on the dash and the leather on the shift knob looks nice as well. Both tell tale signs of the car being driven nicely and stored indoors. If the price is right, definitely go for it! Maybe inquire more about previous history. Keep us updated on what you decide!

[OK-944]

Question: would this be your first 944?

[jcommin]

OK has asked a very good question. You are into a couple thousand dollars with tires, timing belt, water pump etc.

The other question is how much you are willing to spend for the car. These cars can be very costly to maintain.

The good news is, it appears to be a well serviced car.

Good luck

[TibetanT]

Hello There:

First and foremost, I would inspect all of the records that are available for this car.
Second, as others have stated above, the timing belt and balance shaft belt should be inspected for wear and tear to ensure you can at least get the car up onto a trailer.
Personally, I would not drive the car for 150 miles if no record of when the last service was done.
The clutch can be inspected via an inspection hole near the bell housing. Simple method of measurement to get an accurate read on the amount of "clutch" disk that is left.
However, if this is an original "rubber" type clutch then you are taking a chance and I would suggest a clutch job be done, so that will run about $1,500.00 for parts and labor is about $125.00/$150.00 per hour. Unless you do the clutch yourself, but it is a big job because the entire back end has to come out before you can work on the clutch.

There is a lot to consider when purchasing a car without records, as others have mentioned it is not economical, unless of course you have "deep pockets" and do not mind the money spent.

If you can get the car up on a rack to inspect the floor pan, drive train, and see if there are any oil or fluid leaks that would be great.

Also, what is the condition of the interior? Do the seats function electronically? Do the windows roll down on both sides, are there any signs of rust within the engine compartment or within the tail light area or luggage/spare tire area? Also check to see if there are any signs of rust and leaks within the back seat which would point to the sunroof drains being plugged.

Of course, some of these things may not even be apparent if the car was garaged and not driven during the Winter months.

BTW, where are you located? If you are in the PNW region, let me know.

Good luck.

[howdo]

First.... a disclaimer
I tried to post twice on this forum and for several days it didn't show up, so I thought there was a problem with the website or something. I then posted the same question on the other Porsche forum. Just in case some folks here visit the other forum, I didn't intent to post the same question to 2 different forums.

If I purchase, this would be my first 944.

Thanks everyone for all the responses.

We agreed on a purchase price, but of course after I see the car, I may decide against it. I will be seeing the car Saturday, and if all looks good, I'll come back with a trailer.

I was prepared to do the timing belt/water pump service. It seemed like a reasonable cost and effort. I hadn't through about inspecting before putting on the trailer, I'll definitely do that before I even start it. If I purchase, I will change those fuel lines that were mentioned.

The interior is in great shape, and sills look rust free.

What is scaring me know is the clutch. There is no record of it being changed, and I didn't realize it was $1500 in parts and a ton of labor. I'll try to inspect it through the hole. I don't know how to tell if it is a original clutch. Any more details on how to check clutch thickness and tell if it is original?

thanks

[mazdaverx7]

Glad to hear that you're moving forward with buying the car! It looks like an incredible car and I think with a little maintenance, it will be amazing!

In regards to the clutch, you can buy the clutch kit for less than $700. The Sachs kit is a sprung kit and is reasonably priced. It's a high quality kit. You'll want to buy new axle bolts for the axles and definitely some fresh transmission oil. If you do the job yourself, the cost will be far less than $1500.

Also, I should mention that the flywheel should be removed and inspected by a machine shop. It will need to be resurfaced at minimum, much like machining a brake rotor. Shouldn't be more than $100 for that service.

[Monkey Wrench]

this is not a turbo correct?
I htink it has the sun roof , if you look at the first pick I can see the gap there.
It seems to have the optional air dam wing thing under the back bumper. maybe it was stock by them , not sure, I think it was added as stock on the 16V but maybe it was also added to that model year.
pull back the carpet inside near the licence plate. you will find an options sticker, take a pic of it and you cna decode what the Original options were.

You might care if it has AC, personally I'd rather not have it , another thign to maintain but follow your preferences.

some of them had the licence plate ont he back bumper, some had a reflector that says 944 or Porsche where your licence plate is , minor differences, likely they changed that by year.

Mine cam e with the Fuchs mags, i like them, that one has Phone dial rims. you cna look at the width, some models might have wider backs than fronts. I believe all mine are the same width.

Mine was stored outside a long time in a non runnnign state, at least it wasnt; being worn out but there is some catch up for me to do before it'll be roadworthy.

inspect the tires, if they look cracked on the sidewalls ( mine are) its going to need new tires just due to them aging, old tires are dangerous, the sidewalls can split right apart. a tire shop can read the code and tell you what year the tires were made. Ill spend on those last just so they arent; aging without being used. I'm unsure of the price of new ones. I'd figure that in.

any 35 year old car that didnt have perfect storage is going to need most of the rubber, some may be hard to find some can be bought aftermarket. hoses, brake lines, seals int he braking or clutch cylinders ( probably you will put rebuilt) maybe a rad flush or new rad, timing belts, you cna check the tensioners out. fuel pump , filter , there are hose kits for some and some seem to need a variety of hoses that might reach 1K for OEM or maybe less if aftermarket.
There are ways to use more standardised aluminum fitting that are not OEM if spending a thousand just on the fuel hoses is too much. some have "sports seats" they are a bit sought after. Mine has the sports seats, it was likely an option? higher bolsters I guess.
the seats look nice.

there was a switcharound in 85, mine is early 85, the ones after had a lot of changes. some good , dome add complexity, some added performance. power steering might have been a later thing and some suspension and steering changes.

I bought mine in the summer and a year passed with little done. my bumper was pushed in a bit I fixed that up . I gave it a cut polish and will do it again then wax. ill be going through a lot of similar things yet. I was hoping sooner but no garage just a tent to work in for me.
some things I like about it, its a sprts car but they hadnt; gone so overcomplicated like later cars. they made enough that you will find parts and they had a race following which helped and there are some performance parts available as a result. 150 HP is not huge by today's tandards but they have a good power to weight ratio, better on gas than a muscle car and in some ways a lot more cool. The turbos mad a lot more power and may have a limited slip diff ( LSD) bigger brakes , maybe larger wheels and that means you cna ave the larger brakes. eveidently the brakes on early versions were good too.

the bump out near the rear wheels is different between early and later cars. I like the older ones, to me the body style is more attractive ( they have that muscular look similar to some mustangs) but that's only opinion.

some things I dotn like about it, hard to get in and out of ( im used to older Volvos and they are like getting into an armchair as opposed to needing to be a contortionist. elderly people will have more issue than youner people wiht that I think. because they are low and have a fish bowl back window I anticipate people with big SUV's that see right over it tailgating and bothering you with the newer brighter LED headlights.

i like tha they are German, German cars always seemed ot use better quality fasteners, they were galvanized and it seemed to help them not rust so bad as Japanese cars of the era, the early Datsun's etc all rusted away fast as an example. nice to have a car that is not all rusty to restore and cherish..

the wiring is a bit over complicated, they added things like power mirrors, power sunroof, powered headlight lifting motor, cruise control , heated seats maybe. an alarm system, all these things made them about double the necessary wiring just for a bunch of unnecessary "features"
The fuel pump relay also powers the DME ( computer) it's quite problematic but nothing to scare you about, you will work through any issues.
Some may like these "features". Probably hard NOT to have them in a newer car. mine wont have a air bag, later ones may.
the later ones had a plastic gas tank, some earlier ones had rusting issues and to remove the gas tank you need to remove the transaxle.

I really like mine but can't wait to get more done and spend more time with my hands in it, I'm sure it will be a an absolute riot to drive. I know Ill appreciate better handling after driving old Swedish bricks and a lot of the engineering is very similar,Bosche everything, Bosche is ok.

I hope you find it fun and let us know what you find and let us in on the process. we are all interested. the forum is a great way to learn and get more familiar. in some ways I'm glad I waited a little and read more rather than diving into confusion.
I try to participate but there are others here with a wealth of experience which I do not have, they still let me participate and I'm thankful for the great info I'm accumulating as I prepare to get under it more.

the motor mount might be a bit pricey, the engine is aluminum and i guess there is good and bad in that, they really did not have a very high redline considering it is a sports car. maybe beacause of the weaknesses relating to the aluminum block. re-boring them is a bit more complex than a cast iron block like an old Volvo which are basically lie tractor engines.

they gained HP by designing it as an interference engine, that mean if your timing belt snaps your pistons do hit valves, In a volvo it just rolls to the side of the road and wants a new one. one thing I also loved about older volvos was that thye didnt change every part every year, they made logical decisions and upgraded with technology but not by adding more and more electonic junk. all that made them really good workhorses and I bought and wore out quite a few without ever needing a mechanic to help , or a car payment or some silly conversation with a used car salesman. I still have 4 of them , one is a 66 amazon which I love, its a bit rusty but a lot of fun to drive around in. the rest are 240 and 740 , workhorses basically.. even those are starting to be recognised as cool cars by all who drive the new plastic limited lifespan garbage sold today.

Im seeing these new cars in accidents, there will be a carcass and a pile of plastic totalled at the slightest bump. obviously nothing like a Porsch or a Volvo that came stock with bumpers. Bumpers saved many cars from the dump, which is why car companies omitted them. faster turnaround of new products. the consumes dont have a choice in the matter.

[Autobreza]

This is a nicely spec'd 944 in a great color combo. As a bonus it looks unmodified, the interior looks great (no cracks in the dash) and the paint looks shiny. I find it easier to tackle engine and drivetrain matters rather than the interior and body, but that's my preference.

In addition to all the above, figure spending a few bucks (plus porsche tax) on the unknown unknowns like outer door handles, battery, fuel injectors (NLA so have them cleaned and flowed), tires, etc. It can add up quick if your not careful with your purchases. I buy good used parts from Plyhammer, Larts Parts, Auto Atlanta, et al. as well as new where it make economic sense. Most of the key parts are still available new, except fuel dampers, which are always going in and out of stock at REDICULOUS prices (I buy them used).

You'll need a few special tools for the belts. Carpokes.com has a basic tensioning gauge for the cam belt for 40$ for members. Local 944 owners may have a tool or two you can borrow. I bought what I needed from ebay, gently used, for a reasonable price.

For the clutch, there is a easy way to tell if it is Ok but this requires access to the opening at the transaxle. You can access the driveshaft and, with the parking brake set and the engine off, use your hand to check for back and forth rotation of the shaft. There should be zero.

Another way to tell is, with the engine running, put the car in first and gently release the clutch. If there is any slack or noise on first release, then it is highly likely that it has the rubber-dampened clutch disc and the rubber has split. Try going a few feet forward and then a few feet in reverse and for sure you'll know. The driveshaft has fail-safe locking prongs that mate to the transaxle input shaft, so when the rubber disc fails you still have drive. I replaced mine with a helper - it took 10 hours on a lift, and we did some while-you-are-in-there stuff. (I replaced all the clutch parts so it took a bit longer, and did not resurface the flywheel).

Before doing a clutch job, determine if any of the fuel hoses atop the fuel tank need replacing. This is not a typical failure point but if you smell gas after a fill up that may be a source. It's really a chore R&Ring the transaxle its best done at the same time.

Check out the videos from NC944er on YT.

And clarksgarage.com along with forum searches have 99% of the info you'll need.

[Dano944]

Someone mentioned to be careful about starting the car if you don’t know the condition of the timing belt. You NEED to start the engine and hopefully give the car a test drive. If the car is in no condition to start the engine, the seller should know it and be upfront about it.

[Monkey Wrench]

Prediksi HK is spam, don't click the links.

[wwdwgs]

Dano944,
correct. If, just if, OP won't be able to start the car, either because of a fear of TB or not being allowed, It's still possible to inspect TB area, and inspect each cylinder (valves, pistons) through the park plug holes with a borescope.

[wwdwgs]

Monkey,
sure.

[howdo]

great feedback, everyone.

Regarding the timing belt, my plan was to pull off the timing belt cover and inspect it, and if it looks ok, start it and take it for a short test drive. I know you can't see the whole belt, but maybe we could see the whole thing by bumping the starter a few times.

[wwdwgs]

howdo,
if you want to go this route, check the tension of the belt.
twist the belt where the upper arrow is, The turn water pump (WP) by bare hand.
If WP doesn't turn, then TB is too tight, if it turns very freely - too loose.

I think that it'll be too much to ask of you to alight all timing marks in field and see how they align. The current owner may not like this "invasion" and may not allow you to "tinker" with timing marks.

The picture:



There's also a pre-purchase inspection guidelines posted somewhere on this forum - they may be useful.

I didn't do all these precautionary steps, I just started it up, drove it on the trailer...

[howdo]

Originally Posted by wwdwgs

howdo,
if you want to go this route, check the tension of the belt.
twist the belt where the upper arrow is, The turn water pump (WP) by bare hand.
If WP doesn't turn, then TB is too tight, if it turns very freely - too loose.

I think that it'll be too much to ask of you to alight all timing marks in field and see how they align. The current owner may not like this "invasion" and may not allow you to "tinker" with timing marks.

The picture:



There's also a pre-purchase inspection guidelines posted somewhere on this forum - they may be useful.

I didn't do all these precautionary steps, I just started it up, drove it on the trailer...

I'll try what you proposed. Should I try my half-baked idea about bumping the starter in order to see the whole belt? Or is that overkill?

[wwdwgs]

I can't tell you yes or no, for I've never done it.
Others may chime in with more assuring answers.
You could hand-crank the engine with, I believe, 27mm deep socket and 1/2" ratchet (either from above or below..)
If so, you could match up the timing marks on the front of the engine - Camshaft (visible through the rubber-plugged window) and....damn.. there are no marks on crank pulley...There's a small rectangular opening above flywheel, but it's hard to see through it..
Anyway, you have more information than you need (for timing belt).
BWT, your "perspective" car looks good on the pictures.
I was thinking about the clutch rubber-filled center.... Practically, you can drive the car in this condition, but you must engage the clutch very smoothly... gently....and be gentle with RPM's, too. You can drive so, until you'll be ready for a clutch job (expect to inspect and replace more than clutch, when "all things are removed". Clutch job takes 18 hours if you're a well-seasoned 944 mechanic and you won't run into additional problems.

for your info - you can check if rubber clutch is bad by inspecting drive shaft through a rear bell housing.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE3ij_1hLN0

[wwdwgs]

pre purchase inspection links:
https://www.porscheknowledge.com/pre-purchase-inspections/

https://www.pca.org/tech/ppi-checklist

and Warning About Buying a Porsche without PPI