DE rules ect...

[fast924S]

Does ANyone know what the rules are for race seats?? I know if the Driver has 6 point harness then the Pass needs it too, But I have one used race seat, Can I use one race seat and one factory seat and just put 6 points on both???

[Skytrooper]

I believe that you must provide the instructor the same seat and harness that you are using. Putting a 6 point on a factory seat would not provide any real safety for the instructor.

[krystar]

yea the whole SYSTEM has to be equal safety. harness, seat, rollover protection.

you'll definitely need a 6point capable seat on the pass side. and at least a rollbar.

check with your local org to see if they allow different brand/model seats. but both seats have to have subbelt holes from the factory and both harnesses have to be mounted safely, esp the subbelt harness.

read up on mounting subbelt harness cause I just went thru this whole ordeal too. john hajny aka the redline guy has some pretty convincing statements about past and current rules of safety equipment. i read the threads on rennlist but they might be here on pelican also

[fast924S]

Yea Guess I'L have to look into it. I got the track bug LOL. Right now I gotta upgrade seats and suspension. Im running factory seats, and man do you slide all around those things when hitting hard corners. I figure seats and cage first, Then worry about suspension.

[flash968]

DE events regulations vary WIDELY from organizer to organizer - it is generally VERY different than racing regulations

i have never heard any requirement regarding matching left to right seats or belts - in fact, no organization out here requires that

what if you had no passenger seat at all? how would that match?

they do require that if you have a standard seat, that you cannot run harnesses in a porsche, because the harness must pass through the seat at the headrest, and our seats make no provision for that because it would not be safe

roll bars are not required in any hardtop car in any DE i have ever heard of, and not even in a cabriolet in a number of events i know of, though that is disappearing

that does not in any way mean that i don't think that all of those things are good ideas - be safe

[kdjones2000]

For PCA and NASA DE's, the stock seats/seatbelts are fine. No roll bar is required, unless you are driving a cab without a built in roll bar. (The 944 cab would need one, for example).

Racing, Time Trials etc. are a completely different story when it comes to equipment. And like Flash said, more is better when it comes to safety.

Cheers, Keith

[fast924S]

Its for DE and auto cross use only. But the PCA CVR here rules that both pass and drive must have matching seat belts. In DE when you start you drive with a instructor, guess they want the same safety?? Im still not sure about seats yet LOL. Ohh kinda Off topic, ANyone Got a Bolt in Roll Bar/cage for sale that will fit a 924S????

[Techno Duck]

Talk to John Hajny, if i remember right hes in Vestal, NY. He makes a 4pt bolt in roll bar (its more of a extremely heavy duty harness bar) that is probably one of the best options and requires no modifications to the interior if that matters to you. They also hold there value very well, so when or if you want to move up to a weld or bolt in half cage you can recoup a good portion of your purchase price.

The rules for all of PCA are equal restraints. That does not mean everything has to be the same, but if you have a harness on one side, you need it on the other...everything being the same brand does not matter. Seats are the same deal, you can do say a fixed back on your side and a recliner (with proper shoulder belt holes) on the passenger side. This is not a bad idea because there are some plus size instructors out there.

BTW, here is his webpage. http://www.redlinerennsport.com/SafeguardPage.html

He goes by RedlineMan on RL.

[krystar]

for DE's, the issue is that you're going to have an instructor. if you were already going solo in experienced group, then you're right, I don't see the purpose of having a pass seat at all.

but seeing as you're going to have to start in novice, you're going to have to have an instructor. the way i see it, your options are as follows:

1) stock 3pt belt on both sides
2) 5/6pt belt + race seat on both sides properly installed and a rollbar/rollcage

i was allowed to DE once with schrothe rallye 4 DOT 4pt harnesses on race seats for both driver and pass. but PCA said that it would only happen once and I was fine with that. Right now I already got 6pt's in both and rollbar is in the mail.


as for autocrosses, most of the time you're going solo anyway. i've had no problems passing tech and feeling safe with schrothe rallye4 harnesses on a race bucket seat.

[Rasta Monsta]

Originally Posted by flash968

i have never heard any requirement regarding matching left to right seats or belts

PCA National.

[flash968]

i'd have to see that one in print - i've done pca DE events out here and there was no such requirement, or even mention of it - it doesn't even make sense to have such a rule - this could easily make the car less safe by means of having to opt for stock seats and belts just on the off chance you wanted an instructor in the car on occasion - a race seat and harnesses are better at limiting driver movement, thereby making the passenger safer - if that rule exists, it's just plain shortsighted and stupid

of course, i probably wouldn't do another pca event anyway - they are so litigation freaked that they are doing some very odd things these days - it really has nothing to do with safety with them - it's all about not getting sued

POC is MUCH better - so are most other organizers

[Rasta Monsta]

Originally Posted by flash968

i'd have to see that one in print

:eye roll deluxe:

http://www.pca.org/portals/forms/PCADE_MinimumStandards2009.pdf

I may have to disagree with your assessment of our program and it's rules. Your comments about the equal restraints are spoken like someone who has never worked as a DE instructor.

:eye roll sprain:

[Aslet]

Autocross there are no requirements, it would be the call of an instructor.

DE: As said you need the same belt system and the same type of seat (mainly they don't won't you running a 6pt belt with stock pass seat since that doesn't work). The seats and belts have to be "equal". This doesn't mean that the belts and seats are the same. Many drivers run different seats for the pass side. As long as the seat works with the belts you shouldn't have any issues with tech. Again it comes down to the instructor though. If you have a race seat for the driver and the pass side is a reclining seat (even with proper holes) an instructor always could say they aren't comfortable with the system (I've never heard of this happening though).

Have you done any CVR autocrosses? I haven't seen you around. Hope you do some next year!

[flash968]

rasta - i get the desire to be strapped in - i am NOT suggesting that all cars on the track should not have race seats and harnesses in both sides

however, in a DE, the idea is to train the driver - the driver can be more easily trained if he is not having to worry about moving around in the seat - the driver is also more likely to be able to control the car if he is strapped in - forcing someone to DOWNGRADE their safety gear for the comfort of the instructor is counter-productive to both goals

choosing the lowest common denominator in safety gear is a very bad idea

this is a dumb rule

so is requiring the soft top to be in the UP position - this is extremely dangerous in the event of a rollover - those metal bows are well known for causing injury and death from impalement, far more than any chance of arms flailing about or debris entering the cabin

what if you don't have a top at all? the race car about to be built won't even have a windshield, let alone a top

[krystar]

yes the driver would like to be strapped in. but as the driver of the car, you are also responsible for the passenger/instructor that's going to be in the car. it is not about the comfort of the instructor but rather the instructor's safety as well!

if you were the instructor and your student driver has 6point harness, race bucket, roll bar on the driver side, but only a lap belt and a stock seat with no rollover protection on the passenger side, would YOU get in?

[flash968]

yes - no problem

i would feel safer if i knew that the novice driver was safely in place and not squirming around, even if it meant that i was - it is more important that the driver, who is in control of the car, not me, to be locked in place than any mental perception of safety

again, i am NOT suggesting that both seats should not be proper race seats and that both should have harnesses

i am only saying that if it means that the driver has to stick with the crappy control the stock seats provide, then BOTH are at a higher risk than if the driver were secure

this rule is purely a litigation based one - it arose because some instructor got hurt and wanted to sue PCA

PCA is paranoid about litigation - they are now prohibiting driving events (fun runs and such) in some zones - that's just plain nuts

this is just one of the things that bugs me about PCA - they have completely forgotten what these cars are about

another thing that really cracks me up is their waiver - it won't stand up in court anyway, so why bother? (yes, i've spoken to attorneys about it) waivers in general aren't worth the paper on which they are written, but you cannot have a waiver with multiple parties on it

[petrolhead611]

Idon't know if they sell CG Lock in the US, but I use one for AutoX with leather seats( yes, I should never have ordered them, but originally the car was a present for the wife), and we have very tight turns on our AutoX because the rules dictate that we have to have a tortous route.. The CG locks allows one to pre-tighten regular 3 point safety belts, and stops one sliding abvout.Ain't no substitute for a proper harness and race seat if you are going to have a high speed crash though.

[krystar]

yea flash, i can def imagine it being a liability issue. and yes waivers don't mean squat. it is def perception of safety. but if the driver of the car can "more safe" than the passenger, then what incentive does the owner of the car to provide any safety equipment at all for the passenger? just playing devils advocate here

[flash968]

i know - but, it makes more sense to improve the driver as much as we can, and limiting him to stock safety equipment because of a rule like this inhibits that progress

most guys don't want a race seat in the car every day, and certainly don't want to have to remove both for each DE, especially if they aren't going to use an instructor - most guys take their daily driver to a DE - most guys with 944s can't afford 2 seats and harnesses, at least not right away

so, we choose to exclude them from learning how to drive better? how does that make things better or safer?

the logic of opting for the lowest common denominator escapes me

if they want harnesses and race seats in the cars, then they should just require them - this odd "gotta be the same" rule is just silly

but then, PCA is the club of exclusion, so this only follows their pattern and is to be expected - they are all about finding ways to turn people away, rather than welcome new members and friends

i wouldn't maintain my membership, but they won't let you into parade unless you are a member

[Techno Duck]

PCA is not the only club that does this; BMW CCA and a few others in my region are the same way and have been like this the past 2 years (maybe more than that. If you are willing to increase the safety margin on your side, you should allow the instructor the same luxury. There is no reason to do a fixed back 'race' seats as you can simply go with a recliner with the proper shoulder slots. If you wanted to get a nice flexible Scroth harness on your side and a cheaper, not as flexible and uncomfortable G-Force harness on the passenger that is not a problem. The rule is equal in function, not color.

Yes, they are probably turning some people away who dont want to spend money on the equipment, but i think most people get this isnt exactly a cheap hobby. There is no rule against not running harnesses, but i think most drivers see the benefit of them after a few events after they feel like there about to deform the metal that makes up the dead pedal.