HELP with my 944

rossignolskibum · 11-20-2009, 05:42 PM

Ok so I thought I would take on a project car that has been nothing but problems that are brought on by myself.

I accidentally hooked spark plug wire 1 to the spot for the coil wire and left my coil wire dangling. Now the starter will only click after I hooked everything back up correctly. What have I done and what can I do to fix the issue?? Thank you for your replies and your time...

ilikemy944 · 11-20-2009, 06:42 PM

I don't think you caused the starter click with that.

Check ground at battery and wires at starter.

rossignolskibum · 11-21-2009, 04:45 PM

ok so I figued out it was not the starter its my crankshart pully it if froze up..I took off my timing belt and religned everything according to my research and manuels..Now when i turn the crankshart by hand it will only go 2 inches forward and 2 inches backwards with a clunk at the end....i took off the timing belt and the camshaft will spin, so I have determinged the crankshart pulley is what is wrong????I was told to take some atf fluid put it in the cylinder head and let it sit and that may free up the crankshaft...I am just stunped cause when the belt is it will move 2 inches either way?????any suggestions as to what I have done, and what can I do to fix it......

Icey1174 · 11-21-2009, 10:02 PM

If you had the belt off and you turned it by hand then your piston is "clunking" into the valves. Was the T-Belt off when you were turning it? Make sure everything is set to TDC (top dead center). It sounds like the cam may be 180 degrees out. This IS an interference motor, so valves and pistons share the same space and will collide if not timed correctly.

I don't know if I would ever agree with the idea of putting ATF in the head although it may be some crazy trick I never heard of.

Starter Clicking - Try jumping the car, the battery may be too week to turn it over, May also be a bad starter/solenoid. Be SURE to make sure you have the timing correct before you try to start it!

earlr85944 · 11-21-2009, 10:07 PM

if you can spin the cam all the way around with the belt off without spinning the crank you have bent valves

rossignolskibum · 11-22-2009, 05:07 AM

I doubt that I have belt valves only because I have not started the vehicle since the work I did. The only thing that I did was roll the car over for less then 2 seconds til it would not turn anymore...

Icey1174 · 11-22-2009, 06:11 AM

If it was out of time, 2 seconds of turning it over could bend the valves. It only take 1 full turn of the crank to bend the valves.

TSNAPCRACKLEPOP · TSNAPCRACKLEPOP's Garage

sad face

rossignolskibum · 11-25-2009, 11:53 AM

Is there any other way to ensure TDC besides looking for OT on the flywheel, spend 2 hours today trying to find that spot with no luck. Could TDC not be found because I cant spin the crankshart 180 degrees?

I also put a wooden handle down cylinder 1 and ensured the piston was at the highest point with no luck still the same outcome??

Should I just get another head and start that project?

If I was to take off the cam housing that would bring all my valves up?? Then my crankshaft should spin freely correct?

Thank you all once again

Icey1174 · 11-25-2009, 12:02 PM

Are you looking in the correct spot for the TDC mark? They are not easy to see, but you should be close.

From Clark's:

"The picture below was taken on my own car. The "OT" is not really visible in the clutch housing opening due to the rust on my flywheel. However, some time ago, I painted the TDC line on my flywheel with red fingernail polish so it would be clearly visible. From the angle this picture is taken it appears that the alignment mark is slightly off from the alignment tab in clutch housing but it's simply due to the angle. To correctly align the mark for TDC you need to be looking directly down on the opening."

"Many people have trouble locating the opening in the clutch housing for the TDC mark. You'll note in the picture the close proximity of the opening to the speed/reference sensor mounting bracket (sensors removed in this picture)."

"When setting the engine to TDC on the compression stroke for cylinder #1, you must realize that the crankshaft rotates twice for every single rotation of the camshaft. So, if you simply set the crankshaft to TDC without looking at the position of the camshaft, you may actually be at TDC on the exhaust stroke for cylinder #1. So, after you get the crankshaft (by flywheel indication or by checking actual piston location), check the camshaft sprocket to make sure the camshaft alignment mark is at the TDC position as well."

Regardless of changing heads, you will still have to be sure you are TDC on the crank when you set the timing.

Are you able to turn the crank 360 degrees? I would take the cam off and turn the crank till you find the TDC mark. It is not real easy to see. If I remember correctly, I needed a flash light to see my mark. Taking the cam off will allow you to rotate the crank 360.

Icey1174 · 11-25-2009, 12:07 PM

You may not see the letters "OT" on the flywheel. You should be able to see the groove once you are pretty close to TDC. Try taking the cam off, use your piece of wood again, and go under there to look for the groove. Once you find it be sure to lock it!

Set the cam position to the TDC on the cam and reassemble.

SolReaver · 11-25-2009, 12:38 PM

There is a mark that is difficult to see visible through the hole inboard of the sensors. The OTHER mark is a groove on the bottom of the flywheel that lines up to a notch int the bottom of the bell housing. You may have to remove the shield on the belll housing to see this. I get the notch almost in place, check the distributor is pointing near *1, and then SLOWLY rotate the engine while performing the necessary gymanstics and peering down into the sight hole with a flashlight. Once PERFECTLY aligned, scribe or paint the exact line underneath so you can find it in the future.

Now, since the crank only turns a bit, IF this can't be done you will have to Guesstimate the crank position and the cam position and line them up as best as possible to get the engine to turn. This might be difficult. So,,,first check to see if the marks are on. IS the notch in the flywheel even remotely inside the bell housing notch on the bottom? Where is the Cam? Pics might help. This could get ugly so don't go spinning the engine with the starter until we get this all sorted out OK? I will be watching the thread as I have no life.

earlr85944 · 11-25-2009, 04:08 PM

yes you can remove the cam tower, remove the spark plugs also and have the car in neutral. the crank should spin fully

align the crank(clearly mark the line when you ID it)
align the cam, put on the belt, tension it
turn a few rotations by hand, recheck the marks are still aligned
no need to put on balance belt at this point (you may be removing it all soon)
start car

SolReaver · 11-25-2009, 04:33 PM

After reading Earls posting, and thinking about the problem a bit. I have to admit that is one slick solution. WYAIT you can also check that the valves are OK. Let us know where the cam and crank are currently.

Way to go Earl !

earlr85944 · 11-25-2009, 05:50 PM

thx

the key is to have the cam aligned at the mark before you bolt on the cam tower because you wont be able to spin it if its too far off

rossignolskibum · 11-28-2009, 03:08 PM

WOOOOOW!!!! Thank you all so much you are all of great help...Unfortunetly I work 70 hours a week right now with no time to work on my car that I am itching to get running! However this thursday and friday I am going to be escaping work at noon on both days and will be taking the cam cover off to start this process again....So let me review..

-When I take the cam housing off it will allow me to spin the crank freely since the valves will all be up?

-With the housing off I should take a wooden stick and place it in cylinder 1 and wait till it gets all the way to the top and then mark and lock the crank in placce.

-After all that is done I should set the cam to TDC with the markings on the wheel and the housing, then reassemble the cam housing.

Is this all correct??

Thank you all so much!

SolReaver · 11-28-2009, 09:22 PM

Ross:

First things first: where the hec is the cam and crank? If they are not on their marks, then we will have to get them there. As you know, turning the crank isn't really working too well right now and the best guess is that the valves are interfering. However, this is the consensus of people that are not there and so, we are at a bit of a disadvantage. If the marks are dead on and you still have issues, we would have to re think it.

The wooden stick is an old school trick just to double check the TDC. Your best bet is with the mark from the top and second best is the mark at the bottom (which may be off a tiny bit)

-When I take the cam housing off it will allow me to spin the crank freely since the valves will all be up? ...... Yes, I think so. removing the plugs might help. I thought this was pretty slick as well and saves you a head gasket should you have put the head on wrong (It has been known to happen)

Once the crank is in the right position, then the cam tower goes back on in the correct position and (theoretically) it should all turn nicely.

Here is the odd part. I don't think that it is possible for you to have screwed the timing up so badly that you actually need to remove the cam tower, although it is a slick idea. Had you removed the head, I would assume that you just put it all back together wrong, However, since you did not take the head off, I really can't see it getting that far out of timing. I mean, the car ran BEFORE you did the belts? yes? Is this the same head?

You see, the crank can only go so far if the cam is not turning. IOW, if you are just turning the crank and it clunks after a bit, that is normal. you need to set Both cam and crank on the marks and turn them simultaneously for the engine to rotate.

I appreciate your "go get em" attitude, However, I am truly concerned as you are gung ho to tear the engine down, but don't seem to be as concerned with the timing marks. You REALLY gotta let me know where they are before you start taking the cam tower off. It is possible that you are not all that far off and don't need to pull the tower.

So...Pull the lower shield and take a peek at the flywheel. take some pics, read up a bit and let us know.

rossignolskibum · 11-29-2009, 02:41 PM

Sol, Thanks once again, I am going to take some pictures to show you where the marks are on the Crank as well as the little window by the starter where I have been looking for the OT. Now you say take off the "Shield" what do you mean by shield or mabey it is missing on my car cause the window is easily visible when I jack the car up, but just to ensure that I have the right spot I will get you a picture and we can take it from there, I greatly appreciate your patience with me and you are right I can sometimes be 2 steps ahead of myself....

???If I was to take the cam housing off that would allow me to spin my crank 360 degrees so I would be able to get a 360 degree view of the "Flywheel?" so it would assume to me that I could see the OT?

HondaDustR · 11-29-2009, 05:51 PM

If you loose time on the camshaft, yet another way is to pull the #1 spark plug (front of motor) and triple ckeck #1 piston position with a long screwdriver with the shaft wrapped in some duck tape so you won't mess up the plug threads. Slowly turn the motor until you can feel the piston at the absolute top of the stroke. Be careful, do not insert further than about 2 inches so you don't contact the cylinder, and also you will need to retract the screwdriver as the piston rises, since the hole is at an angle to the top of the piston. Find the TDC mark, mark it, label it, whatever you need to do to familiarize yourself with it very well, so you can find it easily. Turn the crank 90 degrees, either way doesn't matter, but REMEMBER which way you turned it, because you'll be turning it the reverse direction in a minute. 90 degrees will put all the pistons mid stroke and will allow you to freely rotate the camshaft to set it to TDC. With the cam TDC timing marks lined up, slowly turn the crank 90 degrees the reverse of the way you turned it the first time to re-arrive at TDC on the crank. Double check timing marks on both cam and crank. Install and tension the belt, being sure to re-check the timing marks before rotating the complete motor for the first time with the belt on. Go slowly at first just in case there's a problem.

This way works and is much easier than removing the cam housing.

Ga 951 · 11-29-2009, 07:42 PM

Ross,
The OT mark is seen when viewing the inspection hole by the reference sensors (top of engine). From underneath the car, there is a large groove in the flywheel than lines up w/ a notch in the bell housing.
See Clark's Garage/shop manual/ t/for top dead center for excellent pics. The 1st and 2nd pics are from the top of the engine and the 3rd pic is from underneath.

I had a similar problem a while back and HiondaDustR's advise was spot on.
GL