Another belts rollers questions

[bbdhull]

I bought my car 2 years ago , before driving it home, I had the belts and rollers replace.

last week my water pump started to leak, I check my invoice and they did not replace the WP

Should I replace only the pump or everything again. the belts have approx 15 000 KM usage

Thanks

[Ga 951]

assuming antifreeze did not compromise the roller bearings, I would reuse the rollers but replace the belts along with the pump and thermostat

[SolReaver]

You probably can re use the rollers, but clean and inspect them while you are doing the job and replace them if needed. I have had new rollers go bad in less than 6 months and old ones last through 3 belts. About the belts, replace for sure. A good rule of thumb however, is to replace the rollers every other belt change. Some advocate the rollers EVERY time you do the belts. Both have valid points and the final decision is up to you as it IS your car.


When doing the WP get new hardware as well, invest in a good gasket, use good sealant and IF the thermostat works fine, you can re use it as well as there have been bad thermos out there lately. Before doing the WP check to see if you have the old vs. new style, with or without the guard etc. If you are going to a newer style WP you may need to tailor the back timing cover.

Finally, check your invoice again to see if they did the front seals. If not....think about replacing them while you are in there for the WP. Everything will be apart anyway and there really won't be as good an opportunity until the next WP job, which I hope won't be for a good long time.

[bbdhull]

Another question for you guys that did the replacement.
I want to tackle the work myself. As per clarks-garage, I need the special tools Flywheel Lock (P9206) and Timing Belt Tension tool (P9201) is it that necessary.

Thanks a bunch

[SolReaver]

This question comes up a lot. Try searching the forum for more info. Long and short of it is IMHO, If you are going in for the WP, I SUGGEST a FW lock, Pin wrench AKA sprocket tool and Something to set the tension with if you are a newbie. There is the Kricket as a low budget solution, but recently it is debated as to how user friendly and reliable it is. I Set tension by hand. Arnworks has a good solution as well. It is your call as to what to use. The 9201 is a good tool and extremely accurate when used correctly, however it might be a bit pricey for the occasional user. If you are in doubt, you can have a pro shop tension the belts after you do the work. Check back and I will post some informative links. If you read them and the cross links you should have a good idea as to what is involved. Clarks is a great reference...but not perfect.

Yea, here it is...
Water pump went out while driving

Check ALL all the cross posts and do a few searches on "water pump" or "tensioning" and you should enough to keep yourself busy for a while.

[bbdhull]

Thanks for the info,

Yes I will do the WP, that's why I'm in this situation

I've been debating , the more I read and watch videos ,less sure I am.
I will be doing it outside on ramps since I don't have a garage .

[SolReaver]

Yea, that is how I did my WP, Clutch, OC seals, Timing belt (3 times so far), etc. It can get tricky, but is possible if you are reasonably good with a wrench and can stay organized. I am not kidding about marking, bagging and tagging everything as it comes off so you can put it back together. Just remember this isn't like any other car to work on and it is a big job. Take pics to document your wild adventures under the hood and ask questions if you get stuck.

The job is so darned expensive at a shop that many cars actually go to the bone yard instead of getting fixed. It is pretty much the skill level for a dedicated owner as once you get past it, just doing the belts seems like a breeze.

[Ga 951]

You CAN do it, it's really not that hard, just take you time. Pick a weekend when the weather is nice ( no garage - don't want to rush it!)

Sol is giving you great advise.Your car should have a tension spring assy for the t-belt. Your could just use it per Clarks Garage and then take it to a shop to have the tension checked if you are worried about it.Or, do as I do and use the twist method for the t-belt and back it up w/ JohnAZ method of trying to turn the WP pulley (search)

I would agree that now is the time to do the front seals, if they haven't been done. Very easy while you are in there. I did my WP and 6 mos later was doing the seals -ggrrrr

Pin wrench for the BB sprockets (also great help when moving your tensioner pulley ). Also get the flywheel lock if you need to remove the crank pulley (it takes 155ft/lbs to tighten IIRC), You have to keep the engine at TDC for this job!!

Plenty help here if you need it

GL

[SolReaver]

Thanks for the vote of confidence GA.
Just remember that the auto tensioner really isn't. Most of them are off a bit, but if properly cleaned, it will get you into the ballpark. I find they are too tight. If the belt howls, go back in and loosen it a hair. Running and driving with a belt too tight can cause WP trauma and failure. I used to use the Kricket as a sanity check, but it drove me nuts after a while.

Planning, preparation, and organization are key. It might take more than a weekend though, as things go wrong sometimes and there is inevitably something that might need to be ordered. This is why shops want to replace EVERYHING, so that they have everything on hand. And it doesn't hurt to get really picky and a little nuts.

Yea duude, you CAN do it. What the hec...the car isn't exactly driving around right now with a busted pump anyway, so you aren't losing any down time. I just hope the weather isn't too cold for ya. You will need some good tools, a fine torque wrench, beer, band aids, aspirin, etc....but yea, If you take your time and have reasonable mechanical aptitude. the big gotchas are putting things back Exactly how you found them, (assuming it is correct to begin with) The Cam belt tension (auto tensioner is a good start) that Beeyatch of a crank bolt, and bad threads in the block for the WP hardware (lets just cross our fingers on this one) It is definitely a learning experience. I dare you to do the job and not say "what crazy engineer thought THIS up? and WHY does he hate me?"

Al kidding aside, It is just time and money, So, If you are going to do it, do it right and you will be OK.

[bbdhull]

Thanks sol,

Never worked on cars before, but I am a very methodical person.

Your right, I will have to do it , NO, I want to do it, especially that the shop wants a gran$ of labor to do it.

I will order parts on the weekend and follow your very good advice "slowlly but surely"

Will keep you guys informed

[SolReaver]

NEVER worked on cars.....???? as in never changed oil, or replaced the thermostat on a Toyota, or anything?

Whoa, Duude...A WP job on a 944 is one hell of a way to start. Ummm...do you know any motor heads you can bribe with beer or something? I understand as a point of pride and money, you want to do the work. Please consider having someone around with some mechanical experience as a sanity check. Mechanics bounce ideas off each other all the time. DO you have good wrenches and sockets and ratchets and torque wrenches and ramps and all the usual bits and pieces that an auto fixer upper would have?

Do you have a skype enabled webcam? This isn't brain surgery, but stuff does happen and having someone there who is no stranger to turning wrenches might be a good idea. You don't need a Full fledged pro mechanic a shade tree mechanic or tinkerer will do. Just understand you will be going deep into Old school Porsche territory.

Never worked on cars? REally? How do people even DO that? It boggles the mind. Oh well, you are bright enough to not drive on old belts, so, I am thinking there is hope for you yet.

[bbdhull]

Never drove a Toyota in my life

Do oil changes , plugs, filters all basic stuff.

Have the basic tools and tork wrench.

[SolReaver]

Ok then, ya had me worried there for a sec. Yea, you will need a "fine" torque wrench, one that goes down to inch pounds, for the WP bolts. The special tools as noted before, a good breaker and socket for the crank nut, well, you know the drill by now. Mostly 10, 13, 17, and 19mm. A lot of the job is cleaning and inspecting. Shout out if ya run into trouble. Cheers.

[Ga 951]

Bruno,
I'm not trying to discourage you, but you are about to take on a job that has the potential to do serious damage to you engine if not done properly. You may perfectly capable of handling it.

This will more than likely take more time than you think since you are a little less experienced
than I thought. I think you at least need a garage to work in. If you had done this type of work before you could knock it out in a day or so. Now I'm not so sure. Do you have someone that can help? Please find someone, this would be a great learning experience and confidence builder. Doing it by yourself...maybe not so much. As an example, the waterpump studs are known to break when taking the WP off. Do you know what to do if that happens?

Still, it's your car and your money/time. We'll help as much as we can. Clarks is a wonderful resource, but I've found quite a few things different on my car than the write up.

Good Luck

[SolReaver]

What to do if the WP bolts snap...Hmmmm...Well he IS Canadian, and from my experiences as a Hockey fan (go Bruins!) I can assure you that Canadians are quite capable of swearing profusely and drinking beer. Which, I will have you know, is EXACTLY what I, an experienced mechanic did when my WP bolts went bad.

Which brings up a good point..."wake" the bolts soundly by giving them a sharp whack with a hammer and punch after hitting them as best you can with some good penetrating fluid. Do this a bunch. It might help, it might not, either way it can't hurt. If they don't let go with reasonable force, I hit em again with P fluid and wait some more. heat applied with a small propane torch (careful with fire folks) can also help. Between heating up, quenching with Pfluid, soaking and rapping, I have a pretty good track record of taking them out in one piece. The REAL prob is that the threads in the block are not so good. You won't know till you get there. If good, use new hardware and you will probably be OK, if Mediocre, use the stud solution in my post which he already read as it is one of the cross posts I TOLD him to read. If the threads are totally stripped...time for helicoil or time sert (what fun!)

When in doubt...ASK! The truth of it is that it is HIS car and he will prob do a much better job than some HEE haw reject mechanic that is only interested in getting the car in and out with a hefty repair bill. Because He cares.

[Ga 951]

Sol,
Ha that was funny.
I was just trying give and example of one of the myriad types if problems Bruno could run into. Nothing insurmountable, but if you haven't seen it before, it's a PITA. Trying to make the point that this may take more time than he thinks. Since he's working outside on jack stands.

[SolReaver]

Yea, that is ONE of the problems, I can rattle off more if we REALLY want to and ya never know until you get there. But, what are ya gonna do? I actually have more faith in an individual who admits that he is not too good at this stuff than some ham fisted know it all who THINKS he can do it all. Those are the kind of people who DON't ask questions, they just get a bigger hammer. (ouch)

But while I am ranting (and I do this a lot) The NEXT time you do a WP. (yea We all WANT to, don't we?) Spend the extra time and wake and prep the bolts. Note the nuts will be usually good, which is why I replace bolts with studs. IF you prep em for a bit (and then come back later and do it some more) then tighten the cleaned bolts on the studs to preload the WP...You stand a GOOD chance Of NOT snapping a bolt off in there (which REALLY sachs) MOST people just honk away with a wrench and bad things happen. Final note: Torque wrenches (not "Torx" wrenches, that is something else) work on tightening AND Loosening. WHAT a CONCEPT! Pure Genius! That means that you cn use a torque wrench to dissasemble and if a bolt doesn't let go....why something is not right. Try as I may to explain this to people.."experienced" mechanics never dissasemble with a torque wrench, I have only met 2 other mechanics that even know what I am talking about. Funny how I seem to be able to take things apart without breaking them Eh?

[rickharrison]

Bruno:

Go the Canadian Tire and grab some PB Blaster penetrating oil...when you get down to the waterpump, spray the nuts and bolt ends with it and leave it for a while to soak in.

I just took off my original pump (150,000 kms) and after the PB soaked in, no problem removing any nut/bolts.

The 4 studs the pump sits on makes it alot easier to replace the pump. You can put the gasket on, then line up the pump and install without fear that the gasket will get misaligned.

I bought the Arnnworx tools....flywheel lock, balance sprocket tool and flat wrench...cheaper to buy directly from Bruce Arnn online than anywhere else.

The tensioner should keep the belt within close specs, so you can "trust" it enough to get the car running and to a guy to double check the tension for you if you wish.

I relied on the tensioner which in my case looked aok, then the twist method for the belt tension. I'm leaving my covers off until after I restart the car, if the tension is too tight I can back it off...or of course the opposite.

Bonne chance!

[Cocacolakidd]

As found on eBay - some people call the site evil bay.



NEW PORSCHE 944 944S S 924 924S S WATER PUMP W/GASKET : eBay Motors (item 140278766075 end time Apr-24-10 04:48:34 PDT)

[SolReaver]

Yea, the PB Blaster is the Pfluid to use. Spend the time to take the WP bolts out alive and use new hardware. I would pass on that particular ebay pump. you want an updated pump with roller guard and use the larger replacement roller.