Clutch Happiness-Got any Gotcha's?

[SolReaver]

Hello good friends.
It is finally happening,
I am doing the clutch job on "blinky" my 924s. I am sad to say that I got really busy with life and had to put the Porsche in storage for a bit. But now, I have gotten a little free time and decided to pull off the tarps, pop in a fresh battery, and dig in for all the fun and happiness I can have with a set of wrenches.

This means I am actually doing the clutch! Up to step 18 on Clarks, which means that the Transaxle is out. just an FYI, the transaxle needs about 4 inches rearward clearance to come out, I had 2 inches. Oh, well, a bit of denting to the spare tire well is not such a big thing.

I took the advice of an old hand on this board and spent the extra time cleaning out the Cheezhead and allen bolts in order to get the tool to seat well and "waking them". Although I felt a little silly under the car for 10 min with some solvent and a bunch of Q tips, a punch and hammer.... It REALLY worked and so far... (knocking on wooden surface) no stripped bolts.

One thing Clark failed to mention (which is odd, because it is an awesome resource) was to wrap the halfshafts in baggies to keep the dirt out after you seperate them. It is probably something a good mechanic knows, but then again, I like the robot-like mindlessness of going through the list.

Anyhow, as this board has some real pro's out there (and you know who you are) I would like to know if there are any "Gotcha's" that I should be aware of as I do this job. Any comments would be much appreciated as for the life of me, I had to take almost a half hour to figure out which part was the "transaxle carrier"
(I am really hoping it is that big bar held in with 4 bolts next to and paralell to the torsion bar tube)

Further, as this is an incredible "while you are in there" opportunity, let me know your thoughts as to what I might want to do while I have half of the drivetrain out on the driveway.

Lastly, for anybody in the Long Beach area who actually enjoys this kind of thing and has absolutely nothing better to do...I have beer!

Hey, as always, thanks guys, and have a good one.

ZUNDEFOLGE!

[hpservertech]

For other things to do while your in there....depends on how much time you want to spend.

Cleaning....lots of it. Getting all the road dirt & grime. Steel brush, tooth brush, towels, LOTS of brake cleaner...and of course safety glasses to keep it all out of your eyes. Water sprayer too with refills of HOT water to help wash things down.

Rear seal, do it while you have access.

Flywheel, start calling around now and checking prices and lead times. Start with calling your local NAPA shop, they do it for most places in big cities and take about a day to do., shouldn't be more then $75 to have it resurfaced.

More cleaning. Amazing how much nicer things are to work on when everything is clean, including the transmission.

[speedracing944]

Ditto on the cleaning. I use K1 kerosene for part cleaning. It doesn't evaporate as fast.

The biggest PITA of the whole job may be removing the speed and reference sensors. These are located at the top of the bellhousing and protrude down real close to the flywheel. Spray some PB Blaster in them and wiggle them back and forth while pulling up on them. DON'T break them. They are costly to replace.

It will be funny once you get them out. All that is holding them in is a O-ring in a smooth bore. You would think it was the Devil himself holding onto those darn things.

BTW it took me 2 weeks to get mine out.

Speedy

[speedracing944]

Also I am thinking it might be quicker to drop the engine to do the clutch change. On my parts car it only took me 4 hours to have the engine on the ground. I remember it taking much longer accessing the clutch by removing the torque tube. I am in the process of pulling the motor on my '83 right now. I will see how long it takes again.

Speedy

[hpservertech]

Far faster to do it with the engine out....as well as SOOOOO much easier.

[SolReaver]

Now I find out there is a better way to do the cluch!
4 hours, hec, I am looking at 4 days. (I am slow, but thourough)

Ha ha, no biggie. I am almost there. I am 1 bolt away from having the bell housing off. One Must have, for me at least was a propane torch. I hammered on that damn bolt for ages and it wouldn't budge. after 4 mins with the heat, I got it out in no time at all.

HP: yep, already talked to my local machine shop service, no problemo as to turn around time. I will call around 4 prices just to keep them competitive. Any yes, I fully intend to do the rear main, It already leaks enough that I kept a painters tray underneath it while it was sitting. I suspect the oil might have contributed to the clutches demise. I will let you know when I get the pieces of clutch out.

Speedy: Yea they were little bastahds. I finnaly drove them up from underneath after I had removed the torque tube. I am imagining in my head a special tool just to deal with the sensors. This may seem a little far fetched, but If I just had something that could wiggle them puppies while gently lifting I would have saved half a day. They sit smugly and confidently in what is possibly one of the most innacessible locations ever mis- engineered, the "dark spot" of the engine compartment.

Dealing with the sensors invariably means unhooking my neatly lashed harness and unbolting the AC lines while trying to fish past what is left of a butchered bypass to the heater core. Lotsa fun. I'd pay 20 or so to have a sweet solution.

Reflections upon the steps so far...
This Job stinks. I now understand why mechanics wanted soooo much mooola to do it. It takes for-freakin ever. It is however, rightfully within the capabilities of the average mechanically oriented individual. If you stay organized and on task it can certainly be done.

Advice to those that undertake this venture:
pressure wash the entire undercarriage as best as you can before beginning. I did and I was glad. Spend the extra time prepping the bolts by cleaning out the inside of allens and Cheads, again it helps a lot. Follow Clarks procedure. I varied only with respect to when I took off the sensors, but if they say it has got to go...It has got to go. Get some good room to work under there, so lift the vehicle up there. I have performed the entire procedure so far with the wheels on, which might come in handy should a jackstand fail. I have also put a set of ramps under the front wheels and pair of junky rims under the back. Again, if a jackstand fails, those junky rims will give you nine inches of spaceOtherwise, you may look like a tube of toothpaste.

Note: the insulation on the firewall is fiberglass! I did not know this and did not protect myself It itches like crazy!

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by SolReaver

Note: the insulation on the firewall is fiberglass! I did not know this and did not protect myself It itches like crazy!

yep done that...

[JHinOH]

Seriously consider a lightened flywheel while you are in there. I know it's more $ but I put a Fidanza aluminium flywheel in mine recently with the clutch and BIG improvement! Nice idle, easy to drive, revs much stronger. Best performance item I've done to the N/A.

[hpservertech]

If you think the bellhousing bolts are bad, wait till you get to the flywheel bolts. I went through heat, PB blaster and 2 different impact wrenches till mine finally came off. If you can get a good impact wrench that has at least 1000lbs of torque you should be fine. Most of the cheap ones only go up to about 750.

Paragon actually has a pretty good kit for all the misc parts like the bolt, fork shaft, etc. Makes it much easier and is pretty cheap considering.

[SolReaver]

I see the clutch! Hallelulia!

I FINALLY got the $%^#$$% Bell housing off. It took hours. Normally, I would have just beaten it into submission. But, with this car anything I destroy tends to cost me wayy too much. It turns out that the bell housing would not come off unless I unbolted the Sensor block. This was not mentioned in Clarks, perhaps it is a 924S thing, I dunno. Anyway, the bell housing is finally off and I was actualy looking at the clutch. Man! It has taken me days to get here. I felt like taking a picture and calling all my friends. Then the nieghbors sprinklers went off making my cozy concrete slab rather damp.

I celebrated my victory by rolling mr transaxle out to the street for a bath with Ms. bell housing (I have decided the bell housing is female as she was an incredible B#tch) after a quick scrub down with motor degreaser, my little bit of ground was dry enough that I could slither back under and prep the clutch bolts (6mm Allens), I cleaned them, hit em with penatrating oil and rapped them all soundly so that they will think about it overnight and behave tomorrow.

Now, after a bit of searching I found my P 233 flywheel lock and tomorrow I will see what this clutch looks like inside. I don't have much hope for it after seeing all the burnt, oil soaked fragments that litter the inside of the housing. But, it will be nice to know, did it wear out, or is all this hapiness caused by one bad seal.

The inside of the housing was filthy with burnt oil. But, the clutch itself looks clean. and the fingers on the retaining plate are perfect. It makes me think that the clutch is reasonably recent (as far as mileage).

HP: yea, I am really looking foreward to getting those muthahs out. I was actually hoping that the flywheel would be soo perfect and pristine that it would not need to come out. Riiiiigh. I will look at the paragon kit, but tell ya the truth, the fork and its bearings look fine, almost new. They were encased in a protective layer of black tar when the clutch smoked.

JinOH: a lightened flywheel would be awesome. The prob is that I don't have an extra 4 bills to spend on this car right now. I am afraid that the people around me are seeing it as a bit of a money pit just on the price of a stock clutch. Besides, It has been sitting, wrapped in blankets and covers for over a year now. It is time to go and it would take me a few weeks to save up enough for a nice light flywheel. It is hard to be a Porsche person among Buick people.
Now, If you know where I can pick one up for 100 or so.... I would be sooo there. However, you are correct, It would be awesome. It is not that I don't think it is worth it. just that I don't have it.

[SolReaver]

Houston, we have clutch!

With the clutch finally apart I can begin to assess what needs replacing.
The clutch itself, at one time, was a "hockey puck" style. That was long ago. I would hold a funeral but by it's appearance it died long ago, so the best I can do is a memorial service. I was actually concerned that the driven plate would be in good shape and that this whole job was for not. Those concerns were quickly dispelled when I looked at the clutch. The Puck rubber had sheared and there was nothing left of the pad material except for the well packed dust that bellowed out when the clutch was split. Luckily I had put down damp newspaper and wore a little facemask so as to make the cleanup easier. The Flywheel was, of course scored by the rivets and so is now at a machine shop being resurfaced.

The pressure plate, is actually in really good shape with lots of spring and almost no wear on the fingers. My clutch kit came with a new one, so I will add the old one to my collection. If anyone needs one, I now have 3 good used pressure plates. The release bearing did it's job admirably given the mileage that it has gone. It is of course a howler, and as with the pressure plate my kit has a new one anyway.

The fork bearings and cross shaft, although looking good initially, upon cleaning and inspection turned out to be below par. The cross shaft had tiny indentation where the bearings had sat and the bearings were beyond hope. You really can't tell untill they are clean. The replacement cost for the bearings is about 9 bucks each, which is not sooo bad. The cross shaft though goes for about 40. I used to know an old school machinist that could weld a bead on an old part and then machine it down to new tolerances. Ah, those days are gone. No machinist I talked to could touch the job. I guess if I was stuck out in the middle of nowhere, I could run a few beads and file it down. But for now I will just shell out the 30 something to 40 bucks and call it done.

The clutch bolts and the flywheel bolts were surprisingly easy to remove. I attribute this to clean living (yea riiight), and the fact that I spent a half hour or more in preparation before removing them. Again, the cleaning, penetrating oil, and "waking" with a combination of "warming" the plate with the torch, and letting it cool seems to have worked like a charm. It took a long time, and felt silly, but I had the flywheel bolts out in 5 minutes flat with no strips and no snaps.

It is important to have a good Seat on the bolt. Several years ago I spent the time with a jewlers file and de burred my triple square so that it fits perfectly. you know that the fit is perfect when the tool squishes the oil out of the bolt around the edges and makes a good solid ring on tapping it in. One hand holds the tool perfectly straight on the bolt and the other hand turns it. Some people like to have a bit of grit in there for a bite. I find that in the initial stages at least a near perfect fit without the grit is best. Again, I actually employ q-tips to clean the bolts

At the flywheel bolt stage I locked the flywheel in place by putting a short bolt in the flywheel at the 5 o clock position and putting in a bell housing bolt at the 5 o clock position on the block. I looped some nylon string back and forth several times to secure the two bolts. I prefer nylon string as it hs some "give" to it as opposed to wire. This allowed me to guage how much torque I was applying. I cracked the bolts, only skipping one that was being difficult. Further waking and penetrating oil had the final one let loose. The tool of choice here for me is a good old craftsman 1/2 inch Breaker rachet, no good mechanic should be without one. If a bolt doesn't give on the first pass, skip it and move on. once the rest of the bolts are cracked, the vibrations from hammering and the oil did the rest. I wake on the center with a punch, straight on with the tool, and on the rim of the bolt with a 5 pound hand sledge.

While I am in here, I will be dropping the gas tank to inspect for the dreaded topside cracks and replace all the fuel lines I can get to.

I am replacing both the clutch and pressure plate bolts, but it seems such a waste when I look at all these used ones, I must have dozens by now. Perhaps someone can think of a good use for them in an art project or something. I have heard that you can re temper the bolts to re-use them effectively. But at 2 bucks a pop, I don't think I will chance it myself.

Hey guys, thanks for listening.
ZUNDEFOLGE!

[hpservertech]

Good job!

Those bolts expand over time so it's best to just throw them in the trash and use new ones.

[John_AZ]

SolReaver,

My HS junior German needs an explanation for "ZUNDEFOLGE" please. My guess would be "to catch fire and let the chips fall where the lay" or "catch fire and take the consequence"?

OK, a couple of WYAIT- Change the heater control valve if you see a white deposit on the valve shaft or you will begin to drip on your pristine clutch. Small "J" hose to engine too.

When you begin to put it back together, have the starter battery cable in place. Especially the upper cable support loop. If not you may have to get a child to put the loop over the post and get the nut on for there is no room for big hands.

On the rear tube and transaxle there is a 12" black tube that the shifter shaft goes into. You will see and feel a bump/tab on each side. Have the bump facing down when you install the torque tube to the transaxle.

Of course repack the CV joints.

Make sure the crank seal is "all the way in" and not just flush.

This is a good time to replace the torn silver heat sheild.

Did you ruin the shifter insulation/ packing above the torque tube-now is a good time to buy a new one.

Check the play of the rear shft linkage. If you have repaired the Shift lever and the CUP at the bottom the problem may be the intermediate shift lever. Clarks-Garage has a write up and here is a picture from Clarks:



GL and get more Euros

John_AZ
1988 924S 62K-Clutch 11/2007
1987 924S 112K-Head Gasket 2/2007

[SolReaver]

Good advice. I am doing the foil shielding, I will check the rest. Yes, I am Doing the RM seal.

Zundefolge is (I believe) firing pattern. As in "Der zundefoge ist 1,3,4,2. It was a solution to a no start problem and represents to me, "the basics will get you through". It is just something I say.

Later gents!

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by John_AZ

SolReaver,
My HS junior German needs an explanation for "ZUNDEFOLGE" please. My guess would be "to catch fire and let the chips fall where the lay" or "catch fire and take the consequence"? John_AZ

Thanks, firing order! I have a real hard time with a German munu.

Look at the TO guide tube. I replaced due to pitting.

GL
John_AZ

[SolReaver]

He ho Gang;

The linkage ont he top of the tranny is in perfect shape. I was very careful with the foam pad above the torque tube. I spent a lot of time lubing it up with soapy water and making sure it all separated in one piece. The Foil heat shield is being recovered with industrial grade aluminum foil and spray adhesive. That and the fumes from draining the Fuel tank left me a bit light headed, so I have taken a break from underneath the car and drove out the old fork bearings. As with the cross shaft, no go whatsover untill I heated it with the torch and then, out they popped.

I was going to replace the RM seal, but, unfortunately the one I had put away some time ago got a little crunched during storage, and so...another 20 bucks for a new one. (sigh) the Pivot bearing is a real pain, defeating all of mey efforts so far to remove it. I am going to try packing the area behind it with grease like Clarks reccomends as the levering and pulling is just proving futile.

I drained the tank, and now the darned thing is not dropping. i took out all the straps, but it seems stuck up there like it was glued or something. I looked at Clarks, but there was nothing on fuel tank removal, so I will check this site for some guidance. The thing stinks to high heaven when you fill it up, so, I know there is a problem there.

Again, this job is redefining "taking forever" as a lot of the steps are just taking a long time and there is so much work to do. I figured out my current wrencing/driving ratio while waiting for the fumes to clear and for this car it is currrently approaching 200!, This will change in the future as to be honest with you, there is just not a whole lot left after this. Well, OK, the Oil cooler seals and the belts and the headlight electricals...but, how hard can thosee be? ha ha ha ha.

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by SolReaver

He ho Gang;
I was going to replace the RM seal, but, unfortunately the one I had put away some time ago got a little crunched during storage, and so...another 20 bucks for a new one. (sigh) the Pivot bearing is a real pain, defeating all of mey efforts so far to remove it. I am going to try packing the area behind it with grease like Clarks reccomends as the levering and pulling is just proving futile.

I drained the tank, and now the darned thing is not dropping. i took out all the straps, but it seems stuck up there like it was glued or something. I looked at Clarks, but there was nothing on fuel tank removal, so I will check this site for some guidance. The thing stinks to high heaven when you fill it up, so, I know there is a problem there. ha ha ha ha.

I am glad you are having fun! I do enjoy narration.

Tip to remove the gas tank:
Registered User konan: I have one tip from experience. The tube that you put gas into the tank with, can be removed by pulling a cover off from the inside of the car. I destroyed my filler neck by trying to force it out with the tank, not knowing about the cover.

Or you might have seen this post:
Gas fumes? Tank leaks? Read this.

GL
John_AZ

[SolReaver]

Yes John, that is the exact thread that encouraged me to remove the tank, however, It does not say HOW to remove the tank. In like a step-by step, dummy proof fashion. I am trying to dummy proof my own efforts with this car.

As I have multiple projects on this car. When I am frustrated or stonewalled, I walk away or switch off to something else. This may be why it takes so blasted long, however, I have been doing pretty well at not breaking anything that wasn't broken when I got there. The clutch was pretty much jacked up years before I got to the car. But the gas tank was and is in working condition, except for the godawful smell when I fill up. Call me superstitious, but having flammable vapor swirling around me creeps me out.

OK, I have gotten Most of the "little stuff" I needed for the clutch from a "Haps"parts store around the corner, which although the prices are not quite as good as Pelican Parmount, or other good mail order houses, they are competitive. They could not find a reference to the FW bolts, so I gave them the OEM number and it showed 9 in stock at the warehouse. Sa-weet! The fork bearings had actually been sitting on his shelf for years and he was happy to finally move them along. I think I got em for 4 bucks each because they were in greasy boxes and had been opened (big whoop)

The heat shield looks pretty now, however, in order to get it to stick to some of the greasy insulation, I had to clean the grease off. The rear main went so on one side there ws sooo much oil I was afraid that given enough heat my heat shield would catch fire. Talk about Ironic. I encourage all owners to inspect this area to make sure that there are no flare ups in thier lives.

And the cleaning...and more cleaning....It was filthy under there. Getting tolerable. But hours under the car with rags, toothbrushes, and 3m scrubbies is getting me down.

For today, that darned pilot bearing, cleaning the cs threads new RM seal and maybe putting the new clutch on. (the FW is back, nice job too and for only 40 bucks) I am thinking of a new way to get the Pinion bearing, I will share it with you if it works. Also the fuel tank, and possibly draining the fluids to get into the Oil cooler seals. Oh, and the Belts! Now that is a full day. Who says I have no life?

I'm having all the fun!

[John_AZ]

You should/must have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced or the increased possibility of vibration. You may have already considered this since you have a collection of PPs.

GL
John_AZ

[SolReaver]

Thanks John. I totally spaced on that one. Good thing I hadn't installed the FW yet. Ok, I will put off the FW install untill I get it all back from balancing.


Today I removed the pinion bearing, repacked the CV's, built a bit more of the shields, prepped the fw bolt holes, went on a porsche parts pilgramage, and pulled off the overflow tank in preparation for the oil cooler seal job.

Just another day under the Porsche.