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Roman944's Avatar
 
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oh there is DEFINITELY a market for a GOOD supercharger kit for us N/A guys

... may not be a $5k for a kit market ... but still ...
Old 11-24-2010, 02:16 AM
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I agree. If there was a simple kit, low boost, no intercooler, that allowed the keeping of the AC and PS for around $1600-2k. It would sell. A good 30-50 hp gain would be great.

Small charger unit, simple plumbing, simple steel mount (rather than billet aluminum), a set of higher flow injectors and a manual FPR would probably work pretty decent. Boost in the 3-5psi range MAX. Might have to add into that kit the MSD ignition box that would retard your timing a bit when under boost, but they are not too pricey.

I dont know, probably not possible for that price. But then again, maybe it could be done. Someone builds one for themselves, then sells the bracket and plumbing with a parts list that the customer needs to fill as they have the money. That may even be a better way of doing it.

If I could buy a bracket and plumbing for, say $400 that comes with a needed parts list. That parts list includes part numbers of parts that are known to work properly, then I could source them over time as the funds become available.

Something to think about.
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:16 AM
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lol - mad - yup - the one on the top is the only one that does not require an alignment after installation, which is why i applied for a patent on the design the minute i finished it - it's also the least expensive one on the market, and priced so that somebody couldn't really make one cheaper

sasquatch - no chance of a kit for anywhere near $2k - the head unit alone costs that much- any kit that would be complete would be at least $4k

by the way, the 968 kit i do does not require bigger injectors

the tuning is the key though - when done right, that is all done at the chip

Last edited by flash968; 11-24-2010 at 07:12 AM..
Old 11-24-2010, 06:57 AM
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flash...I don't see an intercooler?

Isn't the S2 intake same as the 968?
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:55 AM
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there is no intercooler required at this boost level - intake temps were well within limits, even at sustained boost at 95 degrees ambient - any more boost though, and it would be needed

the S2 intake is NOT the same as the 968 intake - the 968 intake is dual resonant, whereas the S2 is single - the 968 runners are also larger - this was a marked improvement in design, and something that porsche marketed heavily when they moved from the S2 to the 968, and responsible for about half of the nearly 30hp increase over the S2
Old 11-24-2010, 08:31 AM
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Good to know. Thanks.

What supercharger is your kit running anyway?
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1988 944S
17 inch Cup 2's, euro bumper conversion
Magnaflow 2 1/2" exhaust with K & N 4 inch custom intake
MaxHP chipped
Old 11-24-2010, 08:33 AM
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That looks amazing. Good job on the that 968 kit. I would like to ask did you keep variocam or is it bypassed and what not?

How was it tuning the car for the supercharger? Do you think with an intercooler you could push even more power out of it? Does it have stock compression or did you lower that to supercharge it?
Old 11-24-2010, 08:39 AM
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Rotrex

kept the variocam - kept ALL OEM functions and controls - absolutely bolt on - no major modifications to the car whatsoever (the only permanent mod was having to cut and extend the MAF harness) - this is completely reversible, and truly transparent in operation - you wouldn't know it was there but for the speedometer acting so oddly (lol - seems that it jumps up rather quickly)

tuning was a LOT of work - about 140 dyno pulls, and about 200 hours, most of which were part throttle tuning - that's what it takes though to truly get it right - it's not just some pulls at WOT to get a system working properly - heck, WOT was a snap - it's the part throttle/varying load tuning that is the key

certainly there is more to be had with use of an intercooler, but it would also involve other things - we are out of injector above 6k, so that would be something to be addressed - the head unit can make up to about 375 if you do everything else needed - remember too that this is a centrifugal unit, and an intercooler does not behave the same on that as it does on a turbo, so you have to be judicious in its use

that being said, this kit is designed to be a street kit, and seeking more power was not in the plan, and i have no plans to build a higher boost kit - with OEM exhaust or even a good cat-back, this is 5lbs max - i even modified the head unit to permanently limit boost and push the torque curve downward well into the lower midrange where most people drive most of the time - this is all the chassis can handle anyway, as well as the brakes and suspension - going farther was not the goal - the goal was to provide the power that the car needed without compromising anything in what porsche designed in this GT car

Last edited by flash968; 11-24-2010 at 09:17 AM..
Old 11-24-2010, 09:07 AM
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brilliant, Flash (pun)
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Old 11-24-2010, 09:32 AM
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lol - i got it

thanks for the kind words guys - this was definitely a labor of love - no chance i'll ever make my money back on this - at over $20k already invested the time and cost was at least double what it would have been to do it just for my car, and i'm not done yet - i still have the CARB certification to do- i figure to break even i'll need to do about 30 of them, and so far i've only done 10 besides my own - that's just fine, as this was never a venture for profit, and more just to provide something that people wanted

but it's really cool to see so many guys out having fun and not having to worry about anything, or give up any creature comforts or any of the other cool stuff that porsche did for these cars - that is worth way more to me than anything else
Old 11-24-2010, 10:02 AM
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I mean, I would not even mind a $3k kit, I'd be in line to pick one up

for a price of some of these supercharger kits, you can do a LS1 swap on the cheap and have a way more reliable power/engine
Old 11-24-2010, 12:12 PM
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i don't think it would be more reliable, though it makes more power - you have to remember that the V8 will strain everything else, and upsets the balance of the car too - sticking with the original engine is the best way around weird problems - running a COMPLETE kit that has thought of everything does not reduce reliability - running a kit that is only halfway or home grown will most certainly miss something, and you'll constantly be tinkering

this kit took almost a year to develop to the point that it could be released, and even then, i went into beta test mode for a while first

so, it can be done, but again, you have to decide what you want, and what you are willing to spend - for me, it was worth it, but i have about $100k in my blue 968, so this was not that big of a deal - that would be way past what most 944 guys would even think about - it's a different audience
Old 11-24-2010, 12:34 PM
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exactly flash

I would love a little bit more power, if I could get to 200hp, even crank, with my 2300-2400lbs car I would be MORE then happy

right suspension, wheel and tire setup - and it would be ready to take on A LOT of things around the track

I just have a little problem with shelling out $6k for a S/C setup, at least at this point

then again, I have NO plans to sell this car ever, so I'm starting a "S/C fund" ... I just hope they still make it when I have the $$$ ... and if they don't, LS1 it is
Old 11-24-2010, 12:55 PM
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that is exactly why one of the design points of my kit was that the price be about $4k - i knew the limits of the owners who might be interested

200hp crank is pretty easy though - i'm not sure what you've done to get down to 2400lbs (a stock US spec '83 944 is 2793 - an ROW was 2601), but i think you would ultimately be looking for 240 - if you are at stock weight, even more

i targeted 305hp for two very real reasons - the first was that the magic "10:1" number that seems to be an optimal lb/hp figure determined that at the 3086lbs of the 968, i needed roughly 308 - the other reason was that porsche determined that the 305 of the turbo S was also the best street power

hence the reason that i think that at 2400lbs you would be looking for 240 - that's not even doable with the 2.5 supercharged, so you would be looking at an engine change

the 951 engine is probably the most cost effective and easiest to fit in there with the least amount of change
Old 11-24-2010, 03:22 PM
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240 is easily doable to the crank, sfr has theirs at 220 to the wheels which would equate to roughly 240-260 at the crank mayb more. switch the internals and can easy keep down a 300hp reliably
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Old 11-24-2010, 07:53 PM
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we have to keep in mind that numbers are meaningless, and anybody can build an engine with a high peak number - it's how the car drives that is important - an engine like we are talking about, that makes those kinds of numbers up top won't drive at all well on the street

now, if you want to bump up the compression and all that, sure, but then it isn't the 83 engine anymore

200 crank is going to be doable but about the limit considering that you are starting with the 143hp engine that is in the US spec 83 - i was keeping in mind the budget too, determining which route was most cost effective - it can definitely be done, and i have done it myself, but at the expense of true streetability and at a whole lot more cost than other options if you want to go farther

240 crank is just out of the ballpark for a normally aspirated 2.5

with a centrifugal supercharger, you can figure that you will get a 30% bump over whatever you start with (after first deducting anything on the intake or tuning areas), and retain reliability and streetability - more than that and you start giving up some of that

turbocharged, you can certainly get more, but the tuning comes into play

this is why i suggested the 951 engine - it already has 250 crank, is the same 2.5 engine, so it will fit right in, and has had all the hard work done - a tiny bit of playing around, and you can easily get a solid 285 out of it and be as dependable and drivable as stock - yes, you can get even more, but then again you start giving up civility (all the kids who crank them up will swear the car runs fine, and all the older guys will admit that it has some issues)
Old 11-25-2010, 06:37 AM
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flash968 - yeah the more the better, but I'd be happy with a 2300lbs car with all safety equipment installed (seats, rollbar) - and somewhere around 200hp

951 engine would be a great solution, or even the S2 engine with its 16v and 220hp (right?) - but I would most likely have to upgrade my gear box to a 951 box ... with LSD its even more money ... and with the suspension mods potentially required - it's just not worth the hassle ... LS1 would be a much better solution (partially because GOOD 951 engine will cost about as good as you can find a GOOD LS1 ... not talking LS2 and on here)

but all these things (swaps) - would require a lot more time, $$$, and work - and potentially even MORE $$$ to work out the quirks and getting it running GOOD, then "simply" bolting on a supercharger and installing a chip

reminds me, I still have to find a scale and weigh in my car ... has complete A/C delete under hood and behind dash, NO interior - roll bar (Redline) - seats (Racetech) and harnesses installed, still have door panels and stock dash though
Old 11-25-2010, 07:00 AM
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that's a lot of weight to remove from what starts out at 2900+

more than likely you will end up at about 2500-2600 in a completely stripped out car that can still be driven on the street - a full on race car could get down to about 2400

if you are going as far as the S2 engine, you might as well go with the 968 engine and gain another 20hp and a much bigger torque curve, though that would involve other drivetrain changes too, so maybe not - really depends on just how much work you want to do

a V8 swap is a REALLY big deal to do right - plenty of guys mickey mouse it and just cram it in there, but to do it right, it's a HUGE project, and very expensive - to do it wrong means you end up selling the car a couple of years later because it has become a rattly mess

when adding a roll bar, if it is rollover protection you really want, be sure it is a roll bar, and not a harness bar misnomered as a roll bar (like the redline single plane unit, which is a great harness bar, but not a roll bar) - such a unit will not provide any rollover protection whatsoever, as it is dependent on the side mountings for vertical resistance, and those will just rip out immediately - see the PCA or SCCA specs for roll bars for a good description of what is required (basically good sized 3/16" inch steel landing pads)

Last edited by flash968; 11-25-2010 at 07:37 AM..
Old 11-25-2010, 07:33 AM
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yup mine is Redline Rollbar, good to race I think anywhere

figure just removing all that interior and A/C stuff was good for a few hundred pounds in itself, now doing the fiberglass stuff isn't going to save TOO much weight ... may have to go for light 15" wheels

but there have been info posted on the cars that have not had any body structure altered, and dry (no fuel) were in 2300-2400 range ... mine is going to loose anything not needed - if it doesn't make the car go faster - I don't need it
Old 11-25-2010, 10:30 AM
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nope - if it's the single plane unit, it's only a harness bar, regardless of what he calls it, and is not legal to race in any class above stock, and may not actually be legal to truly "race" in stock class - DE events are a whole different matter though - as i said, consult the PCA or SCCA specs on roll bars - you will find that they are very clear about landing pads, tubing type, thickness, rear leg requirements, etc - i just went through this when designing my units

AC delete and completely gutting the interior is good for about 110lbs - i mean no door panels, no electric windows, no carpet - nada - change to lightweight seats and lose another 50 - dump the factory exhaust and you can lose some more

i would have to see the weight sheet to believe 2300 - the spec on the US car is over 2900lbs

to get to 2400lbs you will have to lose a lot of sheet metal, the rear glass, all interior, the sunroof if you have it, and all heating and cooling items

it's a lot harder than you think to lose weight - the first 200 is pretty easy - after that, it's really hard - been there done that
Old 11-25-2010, 11:42 AM
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