Belt replacement kit

[massive]

Anyone bought one of these? or think it is a good deal?

[CHICKS]

Or buy this kit for $489.......But......I wouldnt buy from auto atlanta or 944online. Ive heared of issues with AA, and Ive had issues with 944online. Just buy all you need here at Pelican.

[CHICKS]

Forgot the pic...

[kfanazini]

I bought the 944online kit, and a bunch of other stuff. Had no problem with anything.

[OK-944]

I've had great luck with 944online - good folks always willing to help. Likewise with Pelican. So I depend on both. In fact, when I have a question, I usually double-post...which may not be quite proper politically, but usually gives me the answers I need to keep my car healthy.

[massive]

Originally Posted by CHICKS

Forgot the pic...

Nice but it doesn't have the two special tools with it.

[John_AZ]

Hi massive,



The "tools" in your link are nice to get in the kit.

BUT--The Krikut belt tension gauge is probably the most difficult tension tool to use if you are expecting any accuracy.

I own the Krikut and have many hours of experience with the tool. I now only use it for a "close" tension on the BB balance belt. The balance belt tension is not as criticle as the cam belt.

The problem with the Krikut is that you place your finger in the rubber loop and place it on the belt-----must be the exact same place each time----then you press down and read the deflection number.

What makes this impossible to get 2 or 3 similar readings is that you have to place the tool exactly on the belt where it was previously-----

Your finger pressure varies due to eventual numbness of your hand and finger repeating the process again and again.

Next the pin wrench----it looks like a very good, quality made tool. A long nose 90 degree plier has the same function.

The engine seal kit ----I cannot tell for sure because of the plastic packaging, does not have the balance shaft races if needed. If you have any seal grooves on the old races, you have to replace or the new seal will be chewed up.


I would buy the belt & roller kit from Pelican for about $220, get the complete front of engine seal kit for $103. It comes with the new updated cam gear bolt that is needed.



Finally, The front crank seal and "O" ring (included in the AA kit) is additional from Pelican.

Usually, the first time you replace the front crank seal, you also have to replace the oil pump sleeve. Again this is because the old crank seal lips have worn a groove in the sleeve. A new seal will be eaten by this groove.

The oil pump sleeve is necessary if this is the first time FOES (front of engine seal) replacement. Note the seal groove on the old sleeve.



whew...
John

[massive]

Originally Posted by John_AZ

Hi massive,



The "tools" in your link are nice to get in the kit.

BUT--The Krikut belt tension gauge is probably the most difficult tension tool to use if you are expecting any accuracy.

I own the Krikut and have many hours of experience with the tool. I now only use it for a "close" tension on the BB balance belt. The balance belt tension is not as criticle as the cam belt.

The problem with the Krikut is that you place your finger in the rubber loop and place it on the belt-----must be the exact same place each time----then you press down and read the deflection number.

What makes this impossible to get 2 or 3 similar readings is that you have to place the tool exactly on the belt where it was previously-----

Your finger pressure varies due to eventual numbness of your hand and finger repeating the process again and again.

Next the pin wrench----it looks like a very good, quality made tool. A long nose 90 degree plier has the same function.

The engine seal kit ----I cannot tell for sure because of the plastic packaging, does not have the balance shaft races if needed. If you have any seal grooves on the old races, you have to replace or the new seal will be chewed up.


I would buy the belt & roller kit from Pelican for about $220, get the complete front of engine seal kit for $103. It comes with the new updated cam gear bolt that is needed.



Finally, The front crank seal and "O" ring (included in the AA kit) is additional from Pelican.

Usually, the first time you replace the front crank seal, you also have to replace the oil pump sleeve. Again this is because the old crank seal lips have worn a groove in the sleeve. A new seal will be eaten by this groove.

The oil pump sleeve is necessary if this is the first time FOES (front of engine seal) replacement. Note the seal groove on the old sleeve.



whew...
John

As always John an excellent insight and break-down. Curiously if you're not keen on the use of the KriKut what tool do you use?

[John_AZ]

Background.

Porsche did not have a tool to tension when the first 944s were introduced.
The "old timer" mechanics initially tensioned the cam belt on the early 944s using the "90 degree twist method".
You grab the cam belt and if you can twist it 90* ---it was tensioned.
You can see the huge amount of variation possible with this method. "Thor" the body builder mechanic vs the normal DIY owner trying to save the belt tension fee.

Clarks-Garage explains it:



They had a German tool builder, Fritz Staeger in Berlin design the P 9201 belt tension tool. Pelican $600 or 372 Pounds plus the balance belt feeler guage.

Later the Porsche engineers designed the spring tension "mechanical belt tensioner". in later 944s & 924S models.

Again. not constantly accurate. Why? Depends on the "initial" belt tension on the passenger side of the cam belt.

If you just used the mechanical spring tensioner, you will have an overtensioned cam belt subject to failure and waterpump seal and bearing damage.

To accuratly test the tension on late cars, the Porsche tool P 9201 is used again-if you can afford it or take your car to a shop.

Bruce Arnn has designed a few tension tools for the DIY owner. P920X is the most commonly used. He recently designed a new, less expensive tool. I have not used either, but many members have and recommend the P920X tool
ArnnWorx Specialty Tools

Bonus--click on his DIY pages---tiny print in top right hand corner.
Projects & DIY Links

Background over.

I have the mechanical spring tensioner on both of my 924Ss.

I replace my cam belt every 2 or 3 years--mileage does not matter. I retension a new belt after about 500 to 700 miles. This is the length of time it takes the belt teeth to fit snug in the pullys, and complete the initial stretch.
Porsche has different intervals. Pelican sells the cam belt for about $12. Cheap insurance to avoid belt failure.

After I get the new belts on the engine and turn it over a few times, stop at TDC, I unlock the spring tensioner (A & B top nuts), relax the tension spring by "rocking" the tension roller back and forth, and gently placing the tension roller on the cam belt--do not let it slap! Rotate the engine

MY final test" The Water Pump Pulley Test

Note: This is the second test---Once you have finished the belt tension with any method or tool you use. It is the "did I really get it right?" test.

If you still feel you are not sure----take it to a shop.

Water Pump Pulley Test


Disclaimer---not responsible if any damage happens.

Again a long rant.
Here is what Clarks-Garage thinks about belt tension:

Clark's Garage Message Board :: View topic - Belt tensioning without the tool

I only go into such detail with the possibilty you may make another impressive DIY on doing the task. I try to document as much as possible.

GL
John

[89-944NA]

"If you just used the mechanical spring tensioner, you will have an overtensioned cam belt subject to failure and waterpump seal and bearing damage."

I would have to disagree with this statement in John's post, I have used JUST the automatic belt tensioner found on the later engines, for tensioning the cam belt, and in well over 100+ belt changing jobs, have NEVER had any premature failure of belts or water pumps, and in my 20 years of ownership of 944 series cars, I have heard of maybe two or three cases where the auto tensioner failed

As for belt kits and w/p, you can get the best price from Zim's Autotechnik, unless you need to replace the balance shaft and front seals, these parts are a matter of choice, if those seals don't require replacement (or you decide not to replace them), the belt kit, water pump, balance shaft tool, and alt/ac and p/s belts can be had for a total of $329.90+ ship from Zims.

I have used their reman water pumps exclusively (when the client opted for the reman pump, and for my own cars) for over 15 years, and never had a bad one. Quality at a fair price, great people to work with, and FAST shipping.

Bottom line, shop around, and find the price that best suits you and your budget.

[fwayfarer]

Don't buy from 944online if you have any other option. His prices on a lot of stuff are just plain robbery, and Ian is neither the most professional, or brightest bulb on the tree.

[massive]

Originally Posted by John_AZ

Bruce Arnn has designed a few tension tools for the DIY owner. P920X is the most commonly used. He recently designed a new, less expensive tool. I have not used either, but many members have and recommend the P920X tool
ArnnWorx Specialty Tools

Bonus--click on his DIY pages---tiny print in top right hand corner.
Projects & DIY Links

That new tensioning tool is brilliant, I checked this site when I first got my 944 but hadn't been back there since. Pretty decent price and excellent instructions too. Funnily enough checking through his other tutorials I can see he's covered the same power steering hose to pump modification as me, one of the first (an undocumented) things I did on my 944.

Originally Posted by John_AZ

MY final test" The Water Pump Pulley Test

Note: This is the second test---Once you have finished the belt tension with any method or tool you use. It is the "did I really get it right?" test.

If you still feel you are not sure----take it to a shop.

Water Pump Pulley Test

Not seen this mentioned before but a good nerve settler before cranking things over. This has to be the most concise guide I've ever seen all compiled into one thread. I'm about 15'000 miles from a belt change but I'm pretty sure I've got a slight weep coming from one of the seals at the front of the engine so I might be attempting this sooner rather than later.

[massive]

Originally Posted by fwayfarer

Don't buy from 944online if you have any other option. His prices on a lot of stuff are just plain robbery, and Ian is neither the most professional, or brightest bulb on the tree.

Can't say he was the most helpful character I've come across, I tried to post some tutorials on his site at the beginning of the year as I thought they would cover some of the things he hadn't got much detail on for his members - he ended up removing my links, altering/editing the debate in favour of his own views on the thread I raised about it and then ultimately banned me from his forum. Anyway enough said on that, I've moved on from that experience.

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by 89-944NA

"If you just used the mechanical spring tensioner, you will have an overtensioned cam belt subject to failure and waterpump seal and bearing damage."

I would have to disagree with this statement in John's post, I have used JUST the automatic belt tensioner found on the later engines, for tensioning the cam belt, and in well over 100+ belt changing jobs, have NEVER had any premature failure of belts or water pumps, and in my 20 years of ownership of 944 series cars, I have heard of maybe two or three cases where the auto tensioner failed.

Phil,

I usually modify my response to the first time DIY tension owners.

To respond to an experienced, professional mechanic, I can explain further.

When an experienced mechanic has done the tension, with whatever/however tool, he can just take another moment and "feel" the belt. From your past replies to help others, I know you would not "take the mechanical spring tensioner" setting for granted.

Now why do I think the mechanical spring tensioner is not accurate each and every time?
1. Because the tension of the cam belt on the passenger side of the pullys cannot be calibrated.

If you followed the instructions in the WSM, the crank is turned 2 or 4 (preferred) times CW-------STOP at TDC per WSM (using the mechanical spring tensioner)

Before I release the spring tensioner, I "rock" the tension pully to "exercise" the tensioner spring and remove the possibility of a "stiff" spring.

Loosen nuts A & B and gently allow the tension roller to rest on the belt.

Tighten A & B nuts and turn crank 2 or 4 times CW. STOP at TDC per WSM

At this point I have always-more often than not, found the belt tension too tight.

The way to avoid the cam belt over tension ....

(spring tensioner locked--nuts A & B torqued)
Turn the crank 4 times CW----STOP at TDC per WSM
Reverse the crank 3 to 5 degrees CCW-(less than 1/2 cam gear tooth)---STOP

Now release the nuts A & B on the mechanical spring tensioner---gently place the tension roller on the cam belt and tighten the nuts A & B. Turn the crank 4 times CW----stop at TDC and test the tension.

I have little faith in the mechanical spring tensioner as the "one and only" method to check the cam belt tension. I always use the 2nd method---Water Pump Pully Test to give me confidence the tension is accurate.

I have not replaced a WP on my 2 cars since I bought them 15 & 13 years ago.
My pumps do not have any WP bearing fatique and the bearing seal is tight. I do change the coolant every 3 years or so. The cars have never overheated. The belts are chaned every 2 or 3 years and retensioned after 500-700 miles and then about once a year check. ( I hope this does not change my good luck. )

Thanks for the time to explain.
John

[89-944NA]

LOL John, not saying the way you do the belts is wrong or anything, just pointing out that the paranoia on this forum about the ABT has not been proven to me over the course of many many changes. As for the WP, my personal preference is to change it every other belt job, or about every 80,000 miles.

You have always provided knowledgeable and much welcomed input to this forum, and I being just the lowly professional parts changer have even had to search out your advice on diagnostics problems from time to time, and you have vastly increased my personal diagnostic prowess....but I still have faith in the ATB. LOL

[89-944NA]

Originally Posted by massive

Can't say he was the most helpful character I've come across, I tried to post some tutorials on his site at the beginning of the year as I thought they would cover some of the things he hadn't got much detail on for his members - he ended up removing my links, altering/editing the debate in favour of his own views on the thread I raised about it and then ultimately banned me from his forum. Anyway enough said on that, I've moved on from that experience.

yup, that site without a doubt, has to be the most useless site you can find for our favorite P-cars, I love his line on the site home page "world's leading online source". OOOOOkay....$62.95 for a crank sleeve for a turbo? Same part on Pelican goes for $44.00.

Stay away from these guys...first and only time I ordered something from them, I waited almost 4 weeks, got 5-6 different excuses. Yup, they sure are helpful.

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by 89-944NA

LOL John,

As for the WP, my personal preference is to change it every other belt job, or about every 80,000 miles.

. LOL

Now on this we agree.

Let me look.

1987 924S Purchased Apr 10, 1998 mileage 92K Rebuilt pump installed. Current 118.5K Owned about 13 years.
I can still drive the car for at least 53K more miles before WP change.

1988 924S Purchased Nov 27 1995, 1989 mileage 39.5K Rebuilt pump installed. Current 63.5K Owned about 16 years.

I can still drive the car for at least 56K more miles before WP change-----

Clarks-Garage and many others have always said. Don't park the car for years. Drive it regularly. I do not put a lot of miles on the car but they get driven every week. Not driving the car (s) is the worst thing you can do.

PS. I do have a rebuilt WP on the shelf-----waiting.

GL
John

[89-944NA]

John, that 80k is about four years for me, but as soon as the car is ready for the paiint shop it ceases to be my daily driver...then the WP will last longer.

[massive]

Just thought I'd add these excellent video tutorials by VSVENSON on youtube that compliment this post (they're for a 944 Turbo) as they give a very good idea of what's involved. You can check out his other Porsche tutorials by following the link on my page too.

[blade7]

Thanks for posting the waterpump tip to set the belt tension John_AZ, using just the spring tensioner belt did seem a little tight, reversing back 5 degrees and setting the tensioner it seemed a little loose, so I backed off the tensioner VERY slightly at TDC, I've just done my belts and all seems good, though I did leave the top cover off initially to check on initial start up and when up to temp and the block/head had expanded, then I couldn't turn the WP pulley by hand. Vans method to set the balancer belt was spot on too, no whine, I will be back in there after 500 miles just to check and re-tension though.