Header Coating

[944sracer]

Hello all,

I am trying to gather some info on header coatings so I can put together a proposal to change our rules in 944-Spec racing. Has anyone dealt with these coatings? care to share your experiences? even if its not specific to a 944 header any info would be helpful.

TIA


See link to follow discussion:

Headers Question

[vdubr928]

Ummmmm. Id be against that myself. Go race cup if you want to throw that kind of money at you rig. Spec is supposed to be on the cheap right?

Header coatings make your car go faster. Less heat and faster moving gasses. It cost around 300$ to have it done and completely goes against what spec racing is about. Imho

[Rasta Monsta]

Coating headers for me is simply a way to preserve an expensive part, and costs $200 at the best shop here. Having just set up a car, I call tell you that isn't a lot of coin.

[vdubr928]

True. I inks its not about just the cash but I am trying to set one up now. I personally don't have it right now and we are talking about a dime a dozon part. An na exhausrt manifold? $20. Easy find for that. Maybe $50 if you have a hard time. It seems like another way to make it harder for guys like me who's money is about = to brains if you know what I mean. Spec racing is supposed to be an affordable class. I suppose some don't want guys like me in. If they keep raising the stakes and they'll get their wish. Either way. Nothing personal meant here im just sayings that a rule change may end up eliminating some compitition. If I wanted to spend big bucks id race my 928 and go balls out. This is supposed to be cheap, fun, racing.

I think I may put that project on hold until you guys decide what to do. I know a rule change that makes it more expensive will pull me out for sure. I was attracted to the idea that I was taking a stock car. Slapping a cage in, and running the wheels off of. It was more than I wanted to do to add a scraper and such. Remove the money factor. That's what spec racing set out to do. And if a guy has the money then why not run cup?

Ps rasta.... 200 isn't bad. I don't think anybody around here does it that cheap. Again. Not all about the money but why add expenses?

[Rasta Monsta]

Well, so don't do it. Also don't swap in a 951 radiator and external oil cooler, currently allowed. Hell, race on bone stock suspension. . .you can be as cheap as you wish.

However, I find it very hard to believe that a competitor running a coated header will be enough to make you throw in the towel, but. . .to each his own.

[Techno Duck]

If you go with any coating, go SwainTech. In my opinion the only coating that is worth the expense and trouble. The difference in radiant heat given off is very noticeable. My buddy has coated headers on his WRX and noticed lower oil temps because the oil filter wasnt being cooked any more by the heat rolling off the headers.



http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10969

[flash968]

must be a PCA thing. i never had little things like coatings cause rules issues or get challenged because of them.

i ceramic coated my header on the blue 968. under hood temps dropped measurably. it seems that oil temps did too. of course no change on coolant temp.

i went to Engineered Applications, arguably the best ceramic coater out there. that's who the header companies go to (like hooker and hedman). $175 and 2 days to do it. great job. still shiny after many high temp runs. they guarantee the coating for 1 year.

[Cochezz]

What type of headers are those in the picture???
Thanks

[vdubr928]

Originally Posted by Rasta Monsta

Well, so don't do it. Also don't swap in a 951 radiator and external oil cooler, currently allowed. Hell, race on bone stock suspension. . .you can be as cheap as you wish.

However, I find it very hard to believe that a competitor running a coated header will be enough to make you throw in the towel, but. . .to each his own.

Yes, thanks for making my point.

Add another $200 to the long list of upgrades already required to stay competitive in a STOCK racing class. In addition..... that is not actually what I said. If you are doing a rule change im sure that header coatings are not the only upgrade on the list. I was looking forward to racing in a class where the thickness of my wallet didn't affect results. This was that class. If they allow these changes (again I assume its more than header coatings) then you can count me out on principal alone. Stock indeed.

Or, you can go race in a class that already allows these upgrades and you can leave the spec class as what it was intended to be. Slap a cage in and run hard. I don't understand why this is not acceptable? How many of you spec racers break manifolds per year? Are we in danger of running out? Or is this what it appears to be. An attempt to gain a competitive edge against those who don't want to (or can't) install aftermarket upgrades to a car that runs in a stock class.

Either way. Im not trying to be a jerk. My opinion is that spec is just fine the way it is. If people want to run modified then man up or class up or however you want to say it. Spec is SUPPOSED to be low budget. Stop adding upgrades. Its expensive and counterproductive to the reason the class was started. Start your own class and call it not spec. But I will wait it out. If those who run the series feel that the spirit of the class has changed and they want to be another modified class then so be it but by doing so they are loosing at least 1 competitor. (Im thinking alot more)

[Tervuren]

It is the nature of "cheap" race classes to always have competitors pushing for more speed, until they aren't cheap anymore.

I'm curious vdubr928, what this modification would do to overall reliability, aside from just a performance mod. If say, I didn't have to replace my oil cooler seals as much, that might offset the cost of the coating over time?

[Rasta Monsta]

Dub, sounds like you need to run showroom stock. . .$200 on ceramic coatings to try to make our motors last longer is a drop in the bucket compared to arriving at Square One where it stands now.

[vdubr928]

You miss the point. Its an entry level class. Class up if youre no longer in that class. It was ok that it was cheap when you were getting into it but now its screw the little guy? What's next? Coating pistons because blobks last longer? Wider tires so they last longer? More welds because the chassis last longer? Im curious. What else is in this proposal? Why not have another spec class with looser rules? I thought spec appears to have done a great job bringing new talent to the sport.... is there too many drivers now? I guess in all friendlyness im saying..... its not broke. It diesnt need fixing. It has and continues to accomplish its goal right? Entry level racing. I could be wrong about this. Im giving my gut reaction and im sure if I wasn't already looking at a big list of upgrades to compete in a supposedly stock class it would be easier to agree. Not picking a fight.... wondering why not leave well enough alone?

Can I ask why (in a friendly way) you don't run cup or advance into another car altogether now that you have mastered the basics and built a good starter platform? You mention what I can afford but doesn't that question go both ways? Spec is for beginners. What is the next logical step? I would like to be in a group of people who remember their roots and when they were less knowledgeable and skilled and who support and promote new drivers both with fair competition and continued education. Is the 944 racing group so full that you are beyond this mentality? Im honestly asking and willing to accept that my logic is wrong and I don't have all the facts. I don't pretend to be an expert. But 200 here and there starts to add up to a real number. Am I the only one who feels like you guys are forgetting why spec was started?

[Rasta Monsta]

And what is it you think setting up a Spec 944 costs? And how do you figure Spec is for beginners? Never heard of Spec Miata? Talk about a money pit!

[flash968]

yeah - there's a common misconception about spec and its definition

while it is supposed to be a lower cost class, with limited modifications, and really focused on keeping things even, there is still a lot of room to play around. it is NOT showroom stock. i'm pretty sure they don't have that class anymore. safety regulations have pretty much eliminated that.

that being said, if the rules say no mods that increase power, then coating is out. lowering temps makes power.

and using the term "racing" and "cheap" in the same sentence is really screwing with the racing gods and will result in tragedy. don't temp fate like that.

[vdubr928]

Originally Posted by Rasta Monsta

And what is it you think setting up a Spec 944 costs? And how do you figure Spec is for beginners? Never heard of Spec Miata? Talk about a money pit!

Not sure. Not done yet. The amount is not the issue. I own enough of these cars to be in your little club. The issue is its easy to sell the boss on something that is low budget and bare bones. And from an outsiders perspective that alone has a nice appeal. Is that not why spec was started?

I sort of got that idea from the spec 944 home page and forums. Are you denying that the class was set up as a low budget/entry level alternative to cup? Its advertised as such. Puzzled..........

money pit. Isn't that where the rule changing road leads?

Question? Why is it that you never answer the friendly and reasonable questions I pose? I made several good points and you answer to none. Instead you take a stab at something unrelated after incinuating that im too poor to play with you and your friends. Go back to my last post, read my legitimate argument, come up with some coherent rebuttals, post them for me to consider. Im not closed minded I just think that the roots of spec are centered around affordability. What's wrong with that? My wife would never let me go out and build a cup car. But if I was winning some spec races........

[944sracer]

Ok, First of all let me make this perfectly clear - THIS IS NOT A PROPOSED RULE CHANGE YET! I was simply gathering some info on peoples experiences with a header coating. We currently allow header wrap which, to my knowledge, does the EXACT same thing as the coating but has some major disadvantages: 1. hard to put on and remove, 2. can trap oil/water/fuel which leads to corrosion that is hidden by the wrap, 3. makes removing the header very difficult. Obviously #2 is the big concern here. Plus you would need to check periodically to see they level of corrosion on your header this will cause you to buy more wrap which is more $$

COST - Rasta is right on the money saying that the $200 (my google search revealed this to be at the highest end for a coating) for a coating is not much compared to the whole project. The coating, from what I know, is supposed to decrease engine bay temps by keeping the heat contained and forcing it out of the exhaust system. No one is making you coat your header. Just like no one is making you find an 88' motor or an LSD trans or a 924S chassis (lighter/aero) or do a myriad of other ALLOWED modifications to your car. Lets be honest - we have moved away from being true to factory build a while ago. Now we are still true to the mantra of low cost and equal racing. However we have allowed for modifications to be made to increase reliability.

RELIABILITY - If the testing reveals that the coating decreases engine bay temps this will help in reliability. which will keep you running the same motor longer and decrease your cost to run. Think of this vbur928 - how much was it to run brake ducting? external oil cooler? weld-in vs. bolt-in cage? light weight battery? These all increased reliability but were a minimum of $200 to upgrade to?

Its not like I am saying we should allow A/M headers and chips and all that crap. They made a change to allow us to cut out the spare tire well for weight savings..not spec there. We can run Lexan now too. The decision making process of what to allow and not to allow seems faulty at best. I built my car myself for about $7000 TOTAL and I have ran the same 90,000 mile motor for 5 years without anything but regular PM (belts, hoses, plugs, etc) So don't tell me I am trying to run the guys on a budget out of the class. I was able to qualify 5th out of 30 cars at NASA nationals last year on that car, right next to a guy who had a brand new motor built specifically for that ONE SINGLE WEEKEND. It checked out at exactly 10.5 to 1 compression afterwards too. I'll end my grandstanding there.

I was just trying to figure out why - If we allow header wrap why do we specifically ban header coating? I may have lead some astray on my original post and if so i apologize.

For the record its not a PCA thing - PCA rules follow NASA rules so its NASA with the issue.

[vdubr928]

This is alot more like the response I expected. Educated and understanding of my opiniin. Ill think this over and respond. I have some errands to run.

[944sracer]

Originally Posted by vdubr928

Question? Why is it that you never answer the friendly and reasonable questions I pose? I made several good points and you answer to none.

Why was Spec started - you are correct to have a low budget alternative to Cup Cars.

Where does the rules changing road lead? - If guided properly (not saying I know best mind you) increased reliability and equality among cars. You should see the stink I through up when they wanted to allow offset woodruff keys and A/M valve springs. Some changes are needed. and some need revision - go see the rules on exhaust and tell me they make sense?

Why don't I move up a class? - I don't want the paycheck war that other classes bring. I just finished college so no extra money for me. Spec gives a good amount for mods yet keeps every car reasonably the same. There will be some evolution and thats that.

Why headers but not pistons? - to my knowledge the header coating doesn't give a performance increase however the piston would. but the header increases reliability by lower engine bay temps and reducing the stress on the oil.

To full of class? - No Way man. I was a beginner once and was super slow for a while. I just saved my pennies and built my car slowly. The car grew with me. Don't trick yourself into thinking you will be class winner your first time out. As a racer of a whooping 3 years - The bigger the class the better, it sucks when a lap or two after the green it turns into an overpriced DE session.

the $200 here and there comment - I agree but unless you have a ton of money the car wont be built in a day. save your money and spend it on the minimum required to race then add goodies as you see fit. There are plenty of build guides out there. print a few off and prioritize. No one is making you put coating on. and I would be willing to bet in a close race, the coating won't be the difference maker.


I lack alot of facts on the coating so I am doing research. if in fact it does at 100 hp then i wont push for it. I will, in fact, push for the ban of header wrap because i feel (again with limited knowledge) that the wrap and the coating are the same

[flash968]

coating will lower under hood temps, which will in turn lower intake temps - every 15 degrees lowered at the intake results in a 2hp gain on engines this size - further, the scavenging is dramatically improved, so it will make even more power - you could see a 3-4hp increase by coating the header - that's quite a bit on a 150hp engine - so, i understand the issue

that being said, NASA allows a lot of things that would increase power, like you can use any type of air filter system that you want, and you can coat the intake manifold

they do say that you can't coat the header, but you can wrap it - i'd wrap it then and gain those benefits and not the hassles - so what if the manifold wears out a bit faster? you get the power and without the pain of the protests

[944sracer]

Ya, you may end up being right about the hassle. I will need to test this somehow.

FYI - The NASA rules do not allow for you to coat the intake manifold. Only paint.