R12 or R134?

[djantlive]

Getting a new condensor and AC recharge. Should I fill with r12 or 134?

I am worried 134 will cause deterioration of compressor seal. Compressor is original.

[alan6272]

If you add the rite oil to convert to 134 you will be fine. We cant even find r12 anymore so good luck.

[AaronM]

R134a will run higher pressures and won't cool quite as well, but as long as you evacuate the system, replace the drier, and switch over to the correct oil for R134a you'll be fine. The seal issue is only a problem if you mix the oils.

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by djantlive

Getting a new condensor and AC recharge. Should I fill with r12 or 134?

I am worried 134 will cause deterioration of compressor seal. Compressor is original.

Put R134a in. Either way get a new receiver drier.

If your compressor is original, you are just marking time before the seals and clutch fail.

You are going to the expense of replacing the condenser, why not reseal the compressor now?

John

[flash968]

i wouldn't run either one if i had the opportunity. i'd run enviro-safe

[mattdavis11]

In my experiences, the shaft seal blows due to age, not oils. Add 3 ounces of pag 46 to the condenser and reduce the charge to 80% if switching to 134. Add the same amount of mineral oil if you go with r12.

Contrary to popular opinion, mixing oils is not an issue, trust me. I can buy r12, but both the 944 and Land Cruiser I own (originally r12 cars) were converted to 134. I didn't replace anything, didn't flush the system, just dropped in the amount of pag 46 I thought was necessary, sucked them down and charged them up. I'm seeing 28 degrees at the vent (ambient 95 degrees, humidity 50%) in the LC, the 944 was in the mid 30's the last time I checked.

Driers are cheap, and since the system is open, you may choose to, but you don't have to change it out. Mine (both) have the original drier, 21 and 29 years old respectively.

[djantlive]

thanks all. the ac shop will do the recharge so they will evac to make sure it's clean before recharging as i will have the system opened when changing the condenser myself.

they have both r12 and 134 and prices are similar when factoring in the $20 retrofit cost. they didn't mention about changing the drier. the compressor seems to be good so i will leave that alone. getting a new compressor put in is a lot of money as a preventive measure. it was tested and there are no leaks there.

i am leaning towards r134 as i would like to keep cost of recharging in the future at reasonable price. plus, i can do it at any shop.

[flash968]

Enviro-Safe Refrigerants

http://www.es-refrigerants.com/products/w/id/14/t/refrigerant

[acorad]

R12 is still readily available, reasonably priced, and cools better than 134.

[flash968]

as a note, federal law prohibits the sale of both R12 and R134 to non-certified individuals.

if you find R12, it's going to be pricey.

i highly recommend having a shop do it if you are going to use R12. if your system has a leak, they will find it, and you won't be endlessly releasing a damaging chemical into the atmosphere.

[John_AZ]

flash968,

I like your information on the Enviro-Safe.

I may buy the home repair kit with R-22 for my shop AC.
22a Refrigerant Leak Repair & Recharge Kit Details and Online Ordering at Enviro-Safe, Inc
Nothing to loose. It needs to be replaced anyway.

I bought a case of R134a 12 oz cans at Sams Club for $65 a couple of months ago. No check.
I bought a few cans at WalMart--no check

No one checks for certification for R134a in AZ.

Some states are banning non EPA freons.
Enviro-Safe FAQ - Is it legal to use Enviro-Safe™ Refrigerant in automotive applications?

I am probably going to get my EPA certification to buy R12 legally instead of Craigslist.
EPA Certification by Mainstream Engineering

John

[89-944NA]

Originally Posted by flash968

as a note, federal law prohibits the sale of both R12 and R134 to non-certified individuals.

if you find R12, it's going to be pricey.

i highly recommend having a shop do it if you are going to use R12. if your system has a leak, they will find it, and you won't be endlessly releasing a damaging chemical into the atmosphere.

I have a 25# can of R12, the wife of a friend who recently passed away gave it to me @ Flash, no license needed to buy R-134a, just bought some at O'Reilly's a month or so ago for the Dodge. Paid a California mandated deposit of $10 on the can though.

[flash968]

interesting. i have read that there is now a federal law against selling both. it probably falls into the same loophole the R12 did when that was first banned. they can sell it until they are out of it.

[89-944NA]

Yeah, I was at Autozone this afternoon to get some oil, and sure enough, there sits a display full of R-134.

Just waiting for all these guys that are starting to do the R-134 conversion to realize that before much longer, R-134 WILL go the way of R-12. European manufacturers have already begun the change, and HFO-1234yf has been approved for use in the US....change IS on the horizon. General Motors has made the change and will be using HFC-1234yf in it's 2013 model line (Buick, Cadillac, Chevy and GMC).

Most a/c shops still have or can get the R-12, but the price is pretty much in constant flux, and hovers around from what I understand is the $60 a pound mark. Since it is no longer made in the US (you can buy it in Mexico), and is illegal to import, what's out there is like gold. That's why I one happy camper with this big container Maria gave me.

[bordin34]

I believe R12 is illegal to sell in quantities above a certain limit unless you have a license.
I however used the enviro-safe r12 replacement in my car and it works fine and is cheaper than r12 and r134a. Technically it is illegal to use enviro-safe in the US in a car because it is a Hydrocarbon based refrigerant.
Also conveniently just as the patent for r134a is about to expire it is no longer safe and a new refrigerant is being phased in. The same thing happened with r12. Basically Dupont cant make money off it anymore so they lobby the government to phase in their new refrigerant.

[89-944NA]

The sale of R-12 to anyone without an EPA certification is illegal...gotta have that license to buy any quantity. We can thank the EU for HFC-1234yf. It was developed to meet the European directive 2006/40EC that went into effect in 2011. HFC-1234yf has a GWP rating 355 times lower the R-134 and an atmospheric life about 400 times shorter. But it is not water soluble, and turns to trifluoracetic acid (a strong organic acid) in the atmosphere, and it can release hydrogen fluoride (highly corrosive and toxic) if it catches fire.

In other words they are trading something that allegedly promotes global warming with something that promotes acid rain. I'll stick with the R-12. lol

[Gawernator]

Nice, tiny fire in the car and it's all gone

[89-944NA]

They say that under conditions NORMALLY experienced in automotive use, it won't catch fire. We'll see.

[Gawernator]

It seems to me that this new refrigerant that is flammable, potentially acidic and probably much more expensive, is a money maker? What evidence is there of the actual "global warming damages" from R134a anyways?

[89-944NA]

I don't know, ask Al Gore, isn't Global Warming his baby? lol

I still can't believe that the EPA approved this stuff...but it is almost a direct replacement for R-134a.