10k miles after costly rebuild - Pitting, scoring, and dough nutted lifters. PICS.

JD159 · 07:45 PM

No need for the back story, I've posted it before lol.

Nonetheless, shop installed new lifters, lifter noise came back, I tried an additive, didn't work. So I bit the bullet and began the tear down with all new lifters coming in. Looks like I need new lifters and new cams. I'm going to have to figure out something.

kdjones2000 · kdjones2000's Garage

I would say you probably have an oiling problem, but I would have thought that with all that work done that they would have checked all of that out.

What is your oil pressure at warm and cold?

JD159 · 10-06-2012, 06:54 PM

3 bar idle 5 bar driving. Perfect oil pressure. What do you guys think my options are?

9FF · 10-06-2012, 08:12 PM

Inferior INA lifters fitted?
Lifters not soaked in oil before fitting?
Factory coating not cleaned off before fitting new lifters?
No assembly lube used?

I would tow it back to the shop that did the work. Feel sorry for you, GL

wwhalenc · wwhalenc's Garage

I don't see what else could explain that other than not enough oil pressure/flow getting up there. Inferior lifters doesn't cut it as a complete explanation. Just an opinion here. wonder if there could be sludge or something obstructing flow to the top end.

Unsoaked lifters would just cause noise and reduced lift...just until they were pumped up, right? Would only have been an issue at startup.

xsbank · xsbank's Garage

The toasted bearing journal tells another story - I'll bet there was inadequate oil flow to the head (it was restricted somehow) and that destroyed the lifters and journals. Was the head 'boiled' before it was rebuilt? Have you had the bottom off? Are the bearings in good shape? With all that metal rattling about you will have to dismantle the whole thing anyway. Usually you spin a rod bearing with low or interrupted oil flow. Maybe you've got bad bottom end bearings too, causing low oil flow to the head? Bad news for sure, Lindsay is going to have a hard time with this, but even someone as perfect as me screws up occasionally...

Edited to add: maybe negotiate for an entire 'new' engine as there's likely to be nothing worth saving on that one.

JD159 · 10-07-2012, 09:22 AM

Do you think that although it's been about a year and a half, with that few miles should they help me out? This just doesn't seem right you know.

JD159 · 10-08-2012, 11:33 AM

I thought it was common knowledge to not mix lifters? 6 left in the car, might have more mixing and matching. This is crazy.

matty89 · matty89's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD159

I thought it was common knowledge to not mix lifters? 6 left in the car, might have more mixing and matching. This is crazy.

if u change ur cam it would make sense taht ur springs would need to be tested for that cam or at least mesured -.- and for the lifters soaked and cleand to be sure they arent cloged. GL Matt

JD159 · 10-09-2012, 02:35 PM

Well looks like I won't be getting any support…

I'll be parting out the entire engine, whatever is useful, some exhaust parts, s2 manifold. Canadians eat your heart out.

wwhalenc · wwhalenc's Garage

ugh... boo hiss. What a disaster. Sorry man.

JD159 · 10-10-2012, 07:16 PM

Just as a last ditch effort, and because I have 6k in my head rebuild, I'm gonna go around to some of the local machine shops and see what they think. When I shipped my original head out for the rebuild they sent it back because it was scored. I went to look at it closely again after a few years, and all it has is 1 really small score. So I'm gonna see if that can be repaired then sold to someone who needs a head, as it really does look pretty good.

WebCam offers repair for severely damaged lobes, and only 1 is completely totaled. Will check it out anyway. Otherwise its all being parted.

JD159 · 11-14-2012, 09:40 AM

Update:

The great shop I deal with in Woodbridge Canada pulled all the strings they could at getting my head and cams repaired. Long story short, head with scoring is currently being repaired, damaged cam lobes currently being repaired, and he will help me put it back together and check the cam timing, belt timing, and everything else for under 1000$. Amazing price considering the last head I had was in much better shape and went sent to Lindsey racing, they said it was beyond repair and I would need a new stock head for 1000$.

1000$ to protect my 5k investment of a very modified head and cams is more then reasonable, including helping with reassembly.

Another bit of information. The shop that is doing the repair said that because the camshafts are racing cams, the material is harder. This will put more stress on the lifters and wears them faster. Evidence of that is my 2 lifters with a hole and the rest looking fairly worn. Many people leave a sticky lifter for a bit to see if it goes away, now I know that because of my cams, any lifter noise needs to be addressed early. Also, I'll be performing a yearly inspection to see how they are wearing. The lifters I have bought are the VW lifters that are supposed to be 30% lighter. Many of the 928 guys use them and have had good results, so i hope this will contribute to less stress on the lifter. The price is also around 12$ each so they are much much less expensive.

PS. Can you edit a threads title as it appears in the forum?

HondaDustR · 11-14-2012, 09:53 PM

Would this be a high pressure, low flow condition of pumping molasses viscosity oil, aka 20W-50?

9FF · 11-15-2012, 03:00 AM

"The shop that is doing the repair said that because the camshafts are racing cams, the material is harder. This will put more stress on the lifters and wears them faster."

Have you thought about surface hardening the tops of those lifters to compensate for this or applying a coating to prevent the wear? Just a thought.

JD159 · 05:27 AM

9FF:

No I certainly have not. Can you even do this? I was only made aware of this difference by the shop who is repairing the head. When Lindsey racing did the work they never informed me that because the cams are hardened they wear the lifter more and that I should keep an eye on it. Even when they responded to me recently they never mentioned it as a possibility. It seems like something they should have told me. Nor was I told that I could/should surface harden the lifters.

How would I go about doing this? Do they not come heat treated from the factory?

flash968 · 11-15-2012, 06:14 AM

assuming you are using the proper oil, hardened cams will not automatically wear a lifter MORE. it only seems like that, but in reality it just wears the cams LESS. in OEM form, they both wear at the same rate. i wouldn't be surprised if the lifters actually last longer with hardened cams, as harder materials generally generate less friction, and therefore less wear.

JD159 · 11-15-2012, 07:41 AM

Not sure. The lifters can't be hardened though. I think they are heat treated from factory and to do it again might damage the spring, thats what the shop mentioned. Either way I'll be getting it all back together with new lightweight lifters and will be inspecting them on a yearly basis. I keep getting different advice on oil though lol. I'd hate for this to hijack into another oil thread but I've been using penn 20w50. Not sure if I should try something lighter for the 16V.

BTW I'll be posting about my reassembly with pictures as I'll be doing an s2 manifold swap and water pump while I'm there.

Rasta Monsta · Rasta Monsta's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD159

I thought it was common knowledge to not mix lifters?

Absolutely is, but something that people roll the dice on constantly.

flash968 · 11-15-2012, 08:18 AM

with our lifters, it's really all about the zinc, the polymers and their ability to go from low to high ratings during use, and using synthetic and not dino oil. the only synthetic i am sure not to use is royal purple. redline is ok up to 260 degrees. amsoil goes quite a bit higher. i don't know squat about brad penn.