Rebuild Costs?

[Westy]

Barring any major and unforeseen internal issues, what's the cost of rebuilding an 8V NA motor, and also the tranny? Both ways,,,,,doing it mostly myself, and having it done? Don't really want to go this route, but I've seen some 944s that are nicely appointed inside and out, but have pretty high mileage. Folks can always say the car has always been maintained, but few can prove it. Just curious.

[944 Ecology]

Tough question to answer:

1) Most expensive option... Pay someone to do it... Figure $4000 to 8000 for an engine rebuild, I have seen invoices for as much as $13000 to build a race engine (2.5 Non turbo). Figure about $2000 to 3000 for a transaxle rebuild. It's a Porsche, not a Honda, after all.

2) Less expensive option: Pull the engine, strip it down to a short engine yourself, deliver it to a shop, have them rebuild it, return it to you, you reinstall it, etc. Probably $1500 to 3000, depending on the shop. You will have almost no control over the timetable to get this done.

3) Least expensive: Do it all yourself. Pro: You know what's being done. Con: You can really mess things up if you don't know what you are doing. Most engine rebuild kits run in the $1000 range, more if you need more things done. Transaxles need a lot of tools and jigs to set up properly, I recommend a professional with a lot of experience.

All bets are off if there is internal damage (scored cylinders, cracked block, etc.) but there is no way of knowing what you have until you take it all apart and start measuring things.

Also, if you live in an area where things cost more (e.g. California, expect higher costs all around.)

[Westy]

Thanx. That little 4 banger can be as much as my air cooled six. Amazing!!! I can yank a motor, tear it down, send the block and head in, do the bearings pistons crank etc, but I've never done an overhead valve motor. On that I would be in unchartered territory.

Oh well, thanx for the quick response.

[BoulderGeek]

When I got my 944, a local Porsche mechanic (who prefers 911s to work on) said:

"Take it back. Won't be as much fun as a 911, but you'll be supporting 911 costs. And, no, I don't want to work on it."

I learned a lot in those few sentences.

[Westy]

It really sucks being addicted to Porsches!!!!

[Jfrahm]

There is often no point in rebuilding a 944 motor. The bottom end lasts a long, long time and if there is any damage you can replace the whole motor for less than the cost of a set of pistons. High mileage is no big deal.

A valve guide job and some rod bearings is about as far into it as most should ever need to get.
-Joel.

[Westy]

Originally Posted by Jfrahm

you can replace the whole motor for less than the cost of a set of pistons. High mileage is no big deal. Joel.

Question # 1 ^^^^^^ HUH????
Question # 2 How much is a head job? (No nasty comments!!!!!)
Question # 3 If a 944 won't pass smog, which sux out here, that suggests the cylinders/rings are bad. At least that's my experience.

[Bradical]

Originally Posted by Jfrahm

There is often no point in rebuilding a 944 motor. The bottom end lasts a long, long time and if there is any damage you can replace the whole motor for less than the cost of a set of pistons. High mileage is no big deal.

A valve guide job and some rod bearings is about as far into it as most should ever need to get.
-Joel.

I think what Jfrahm is getting at is that there is no point in repairing a damaged cylinder wall after spinning a rod bearing because the block has to be sleeved and that costs much more than a longblock would. Doing piston rings, rod and main bearings is really easy. I rebuilt a '83 and I think including having the head machined the whole project cost me around $1200 and a few saturdays of my time.

[v2rocket_aka944]

Do it yourself, figure about $2 grand all in, maybe more, maybe less.
Head rebuild can go from $250 to the moon depending where you take it, including parts.

There's a complete rebuilt engine on San Diego craigslist for $575 right now, if you want to go that route.

If a 944 won't pass smog its because of the fuel ratio being off (usually due to bad O2 sensor) or catalyst.

I've smogged my car many times and the only times it's failed has been a dead cat. Swap the cat, passes like a new car.

Don't worry about mileage so much, just ask for maintenance history. 100, 200, even 300k isn't a big deal for a 944 motor if it's taken care of. I saw once a 300k mile block with perfect glass-smooth cylinder walls and the car still pulled strong before being parked for other reasons.

[Westy]

Originally Posted by v2rocket_aka944

Head rebuild can go from $250 to the moon depending where you take it, including parts.

Anything I did would be stock,,,BECAUSE of CA smog

There's a complete rebuilt engine on San Diego craigslist for $575 right now, if you want to go that route.

Saw that. It's a risk, but so is everything else.

If a 944 won't pass smog its because of the fuel ratio being off (usually due to bad O2 sensor) or catalyst.

Yeah, I forgot my SC had a bad CAT and that was why


Don't worry about mileage so much, just ask for maintenance history. 100, 200, even 300k isn't a big deal for a 944 motor if it's taken care of. I saw once a 300k mile block with perfect glass-smooth cylinder walls and the car still pulled strong before being parked for other reasons.

Thanx for the input!

[v2rocket_aka944]

Not sure where in the foothills you are but check with Wayne's Engine Rebuilders in Riverside if you need a head done.

Standard head rebuild = new valve guides, new valve seals, skim the head mating surface, clean everything, reassemble, about $275 including parts. And about a 2-3 day turnaround. Nice guys too. Had a Pelican's 944 head done there years ago and car is running great still.

Now that I live in the Valley I had another 944 head done at a local shop that was around $500 including parts. Big variance depending which shop you go to.

[Westy]

Thanx, but I'm 30 miles east of Sacto. Still,,,it gives me a base to compare with. Thanx again

[ckelly78z]

On a couple of inline 6 Datsun Z motors I have "refreshed" an engine before by honing the cylinders and putting new rings on the old pistons, new rod bearings after polishing the crank journals with fine emory paper, and gauging for new thickness (this will dictate if you get standard or undersized rod bearings). I also cleaned up the combustion chambers by porting a small bit and polishing to improve the flow. I installed new valve seats, and lapped the old valves in for good fitment. I put new FelPro gaskets everywhere, and replaced the waterpump while I was in there. I also put new timing chain guides and tensioners. It wasn't difficult, but it did take a large, clean, dedicated work space, an engine hoist and engine stand, lots of patience, and privacy (no kids or dogs knocking stuff over or "helpers" losing stuff). You need to label everything so you can read it, and taking pictures is a good idea for reference later.

[v2rocket_aka944]

Originally Posted by ckelly78z

On a couple of inline 6 Datsun Z motors I have "refreshed" an engine before by honing the cylinders and putting new rings on the old pistons, new rod bearings after polishing the crank journals with fine emory paper, and gauging for new thickness (this will dictate if you get standard or undersized rod bearings). I also cleaned up the combustion chambers by porting a small bit and polishing to improve the flow. I installed new valve seats, and lapped the old valves in for good fitment. I put new FelPro gaskets everywhere, and replaced the waterpump while I was in there. I also put new timing chain guides and tensioners. It wasn't difficult, but it did take a large, clean, dedicated work space, an engine hoist and engine stand, lots of patience, and privacy (no kids or dogs knocking stuff over or "helpers" losing stuff). You need to label everything so you can read it, and taking pictures is a good idea for reference later.

While this is good advice of how to go about it, it should be noted for posterity that you can't just hone a 944 block.
If you've got it apart you can measure it for cylinder roundness, but most of the time they are still within spec and you can just re-ring the pistons and scrub the bores clean.
If the bores need to be machined you need to find a shop with the right equipment.
Fortunately this isn't as expensive as it used to be, but finding the shop capable may take some time.

[Westy]

Found this S in Oregon. Since Portland has smog requirements, it should pass CA smog. This is the 3.0 liter 16 valve, correct? I'm assuming it would be a little more because of the different head, but the bearings and other things would be similar if not the same?

Wife loves the color combo as do I. Hmmmm,,,maybe I'll find someone in the Portland area to do a look see for me. What do ya'll think???

Ooops. I guess it would help if I posted the link.

Porsche 944 S

[Jfrahm]

Originally Posted by Westy

Question # 1 ^^^^^^ HUH????
Question # 2 How much is a head job? (No nasty comments!!!!!)
Question # 3 If a 944 won't pass smog, which sux out here, that suggests the cylinders/rings are bad. At least that's my experience.

Answer #1: Oversized pistons are very expensive, probably $1000, and good 8v short blocks are like $500. Add the cost of boring and doing a proper chemical hone on an alusil block and you could make a little pile of good 8v short blocks for the cost of a proper bottom end rebuild.

#2: Depends on the shop and the Porsche Tax, and depends on if the head needs pits welded up, etc. A few hundred bucks at the head shop would be fair. No idea what a mechanic would charge to R&R the thing.

#3: I have never seen a car not pass smog due to bottom end unless you mean a fail due to visual smoke and not anything due to the numbers. There are other much more common problems, and a lot of other 944s to buy if you do not want one that is blowing smoke like a bug fogger.

If the motor is to be gone through, honestly I would not pull the pistons at under 300K on a street motor if it looked OK, let alone re-ring, let alone do anything with the alusil bore, it having worn in with the plated pistons, etc. A factory built used shortblock in good shape is a better option IMO than a bottom end rebuild. 16v short blocks or complete motors are a lot more expensive but still probably a better deal.

If you are paying shops to work on the car, it'd be much cheaper to buy one in relatively good running shape than to buy a project and perhaps even to buy a totally different car that is a lot newer and thus fewer age related issues and better integrated diagnostics. Even the difference between my 1992 968 and 1987 928 is dramatic in the areas of cracking wire insulation, perished hoses, etc.

-Joel.

[Westy]

Here's a pic

[Westy]

And Joel,,,thanx for that info

[SloMo228]

Originally Posted by Westy

Found this S in Oregon. Since Portland has smog requirements, it should pass CA smog. This is the 3.0 liter 16 valve, correct? I'm assuming it would be a little more because of the different head, but the bearings and other things would be similar if not the same?

Wife loves the color combo as do I. Hmmmm,,,maybe I'll find someone in the Portland area to do a look see for me. What do ya'll think???

Ooops. I guess it would help if I posted the link.

Porsche 944 S

The S has a 2.5L DOHC engine and is otherwise much the same as an NA. The S2 has the 3.0L DOHC and has Turbo-style brakes and front end, and is usually priced in line with the Turbo as well.

[PDX-944]

I just did a full rebuild, new bearings everywhere nothing really left untouched. it was just over 2k. we get parts wholesale on account, so theres probably not much cheaper you can do if you do the whole 9 yards!
we had a spun rod bearing that led to failed oil filter, which led to copper in EVERYTHING. no good =p