944 NA to turbo conversion

[ebattino]

I know this subject has been touched upon in this forum and is generally discouraged...but has anybody put a turbo on a late model 944 NA? And if so, any advice for someone willing to give it a shot? (other than sell your car and buy a 951)
thanks,
-Eric

[Goku]

Use the search feature, this has been discussed many times.

....and good luck

[944 boy]

Hey Eric. I There are alot of posts on it here. But its not a topic you want to bring up. You better have it done by the time I get back to Rochester.

-Greg

[Verruckt]

Yes, it can be done. Yes, it will cost you more then buying a 944 Turbo, Yes, it makes some here crazy to see that this is one of your first posts! If you want to turbo your N/A, the cheapest route is to but a complete 944 turbo engine and all the parts that go with it on ebay. Will set you back at least 5K! It can be done free-hand if you are into that kinda thing. Use the search engine, here and on Rennlist and do your research.

[ebattino]

Sounds like a hit a sore spot...sorry I asked. After some lengthy (and painful) research, I think I'm going to have to throw in the towel on this project.
Let me know if anybody needs a k26 turbo, plumbing, intercooler, wastegate, etc.
ebattino@hotmail.com
-Eric

[x3m944]

I don't care if people get bent. It can be done.

I did this on my car previous for 997.00 total cost.[list=1] · MSD 6 BTM the most expensive single item used 165.00 (ebay)
· I built a t3/t4 hybrid for 185.00 (included rebuild & used turbos).
· Aluminized Exhaust pipe for intake and turbo pipes – 50.00
· Fabricated my own turbo mounts. – 25.00
· 5th Injector setup. (stainless lines, etc) –100.00
· Alchy and Water Injection as back up.-150.00
- Air/Fuel gauge rigged to alchy and water, if I even got close to lean, alchy injection kicked on. This prevented any problems with 5th injector failure or lean out.
· Small intercooler (turbocoupe ford) - 15.00
· Intercooler fan - (honda radiator fan) - 10.00
· Turbo had internal wastegate
· Used Blow off valve (Volvo) - 12.00
· Oil Tank, Oil Cooler, inline filter and fan, lines and pump - 185.00
- (dedicated oil system for turbo)
· Boost Gauge – 25.00
· Air/Fuel LED gauge – built it myself - 25.00
· Misc – 50.00[/list=1]

[x3m944]

Can be done cheaper use the stock oil setup and just tapped pan and oil delivery that would be about 50.00 or less and would save 135.00

Did not need the intercooler or fan so that would be a savings of 25.00
In my case I ran 8 PSI, so above 5 PSI, I was using the Intercooler and the Alchy injection set to come on if I went lean or at 5 PSI on up.
Could have used a used T3, and that would save around 85.00 or so assuming I rebuilt it If I got it used and it was good to go I could save up to 125.00

Lots of variables, so cost can go up and down. Depends on what you are going for. I used the Hybrid because I had the parts and I did a rebuild just because.

I did the Head Gasket and that was 90.00 Of course that could vary I had mine made.

I switch to different head bolts, Cleaned up the head ports, a few other things, you wouldn’t have to do.

I did work to a spare head, swapped the heads out and went to a custom intake. Changed Timing Belt, switched to my own MAF setup. Swapped out the early DME for a LATE DME and a custom chip, changed some other things to work with the Late DME.
Used Nitrous (25 HP dry injection, setup in front of the 5th Injector).

Used Compressed Air to spool turbo for zero lag (Arming system, WOT switch – ie press gas to floor, compressed air system spools turbo up.) NOS was for the fun of it.

I could go on… the car is back to stock at least for now, to facilitate the testing of my supercharger. Well Almost stock, Stock head, but new head gasket, Early DME and AFM back in place, etc.

[x3m944]

First lets assume you want to follow the general setup of a 951. So that means a crossover pipe and turbo.

You will need to have a cross over pipe made or use the 951 setup, I prefer made up, just get a muffler/exhaust shop to make something for you.

Now you can tap into the oil line and supply the turbo oil, you will need to tap the pan(the oil pan already has a spot for this) you install the line so thats supply and return for the oil and turbo.

The crossover pipe need to come up on the drivers side, you will need to support the turbo(do not depend on the pipe to do this) thats where the 951 engine mount comes into play.

Now lets assume you can do the oil thing, mount it etc. Now you need to make sure you have either an internal or external wastegate for the turbo you will also want a blow off valve, since this is not a stock setup.

Now you need to run a intake pipe from the turbo to the AFM. You will also need to run a Filter and pipe to the turbo inlet on the exhaust side.

You need to use a down pipe and run that back to your stock exhaust.

Now You want to make sure you limit boost to no more than 6 PSI on a stock engine, 5 - 6 will make a difference. Trust me.

You also need a way to supply more fuel. So you could buy a AIC setup or rig up your own 5th Injector, that could run full duty cycle as long as you are under boost, is it perfect nope is it cheap yep, does it work yes flawlessly. You will need to size the injector based on fuel needs, easy to do if you have a clue about this sort of thing.

You do not need an intercooler for such low boost levels. So I wouldnt worry about that, besides the additional injector will help cool the air charge.

You could also do water injection.

You will need a way to retard timing under boost, since your stock setup can not do that. I recommend the MSD 6 BTM, plus this improves your ignition.

Their are some seriously cheap way of doing a turbo conversion. Understand that you are seriously limited by the condition of your engine. Not to mention it was not designed for boost. Boost will add stress and heat. So you have to limit boost. Unless you plan on doing an engine rebuild, in which case you could thermal coat your pistons or better yet get some forged new ones or 951 pistons.

One serious recommendation would be a better head gasket. Alloy - like coper or MLS. Under boost you need a good seal.

Best Bet would be change the head gasket and timing belt at the same time. Takes care of to things, wait till after you retension the timing belt before doing the conversion.

While the head is off would be a good time to remove the oil pan and tap it. DO NOT do this while its attached to the block. BAD IDEA, you do not want metal shavings in the oil. Hince remove pan, tap and then clean then reattach.

You could also use a dedicated oil system for the turbo, but then you need a dedicated cooler and lines and pump. Not bad, cause it can be done cheap and ensures clean oil and does not tax the engines oil system.

Oh dont forget a boost gauge.

So to recap
Turbo
Crossover pipe
Turbo Mounts(951 engine mount drivers side)
Oil delivery and return(lines and fittings)
Fuel delivery
Intake pipes
Down Pipe
Free flow exhaust, ideally high flow cat
Wastegate
Blow Off Valve
Boost Gauge
Ignition Control
Cone filter for turbo


Recommended:
Stainless fuel lines
HP Head Gasket
Good Condition Engine (or rebuild)


You can skip the recommend stuff, but remember that the added boost will make a ok head gasket fail quickly.

The pistons and the head, rods, crank, etc can be leaned on a bit, so you dont have to change them, provided you eliminate detonation.

The way to do that is ensure plenty of fuel and good timing control.

You could do this for around 1500 or less assuming you do most everything.

For the cross over pipe and intake pipe you can use exhaust pipe, that is same stuff you make your crossover pipe from you can use for the intake pipe and turbo air feed pipe.

Their is a ton you can do and ways to keep it low cost and have fun, but you have to be able to do most of this yourself. Otherwise you have to add labor to the whole picture.

Keep in mind its far easier if you can do things for yourself. Now of course if you are going to use you KKK, well then you have to work with that.

You could also do something like the 924 BAE kit only for the 944, you could mount the turbo on the passengers side, etc... but thats not the easiest and would complicate things, because you would need a header for the turbo. Cross over pipe is the easiest. If you size turbo properly then you do not have to worry about lag or you can work around it.

BTW -- I only used the NOS twice... but thats a story for another time, Mostly that system was just for me... Very stealth, just wanted to build it. A different system I built for the Honda crowd and a few of my other cars, was a Dry system, like the current ZEX system, dry injection, Nitrous Injector mounted dead center of Flat Top Cone Filter, supper simple and inexpensive to make. Bottles are easy to get as well. I used CO2 bottles, particularly Paint Ball Bottles --- 12, 16, 20oz bottles... cheater systems.

Oh excuse my spelling if it was off.

[x3m944]

Keep in mind all the mods I did, like differnt intake, etc... that was just me playing, you do not have to do such things to add a turbo.

But keep it real, you are not going to run 15 PSI or something crazy like that on a stock engine, lease not for long.

But lets do that math shall we -- -assume for a minute that the max power increase you can expect per psi is 8 % increase per PSI, now lets take a look at 150 Hp, so if we add 5 PSI thats 40% increase, or 210 hp.

Run those numbers through a few different Calculators and I come up with readings of 201 - 212 Hp. This of course assumes some worse case numbers, if the charge is cool and you tune accordinly you can increase that number.

Of course thats flywheel HP. The cooler the charge and the better the tune (air fuel mix, etc) the more power you can make. I prefer to shoot for a 10% increase per PSI or 225 HP at 5 PSI. Move that up to 8 PSI keeping with the 8% increase and you would see 246 HP. Hemm imagine that.... Lets just say I was making more and leave it at that.

[x3m944]

Keep in Mind I am simply multiplying # of PSI by 8 for a total % number and then that x HP equals the increase. The actual math is a bit more complicated and more accurate.

Down side to a NA install is it lacks the knock sensor setup as found on the 951. Of course it isnt mandatory but it can be crucial, thats why I used the water injection as a back up. No way I am letting anything go lean or fail and detonation isnt happening on my watch.

[BananaClip]

i'm not exactly sure but i think im going to cry

[x3m944]

Cry? Whatever for... yea the turbo conversion subject has been beaten to death, buy a 951, blah blah blah... well I can only say I didnt, I bought a couple of 924 turbos and boosted my NA. Nuff said.

Can it cost more sure, is it worth it, it was for me. Is it a 951 nope. Is my car fast yep, is that everything nope. Can I upgrade my car to 951 specs (suspension, handling etc..) sure, but why? I like the car as is, its not dog and its loads of fun.

The idea --- is more power, not a DIY 951. IF you want a 951 you buy a 951. If you want a faster 944 NA/LUX, well lets see you can boost it (several kinds of superchargers, also turbos) you can run Nitrous. You can up the compression. So on and on....

The question is when does the 951 shine? The track... well thats as much driver as it is car. The 951 is certainly a major upgrade over the NA, suspension and powerwise... and you can increase those... but thats not my arguement. Never has been.

The 951 is a better platform for ultimate power, but if you dont have one... well then wrench on what you have.

Personally I think over 250 HP to the rear wheels in a NA without the juice is down right killer. 200Hp to the rear wheels is. A stock 951 isnt exactly all that in the power department... it can be cranked up thats what it has going for it, that and the better platform, but they are not worlds apart.

250 Hp with another 25HP of juice on tap... well thats crazy. But I never said I wasnt crazy.

Of course you can go all out, forged pistons, thermal coatings, stroker, forged rods, etc... but it will cost. The cheap solution is keep it real and keep it simple. A little power goes a long way in an already fantastic car.

Next up for me will be the Brake upgrade from Travis over at Rennbay.

[CJFusco]

For some reason, I find myself wishing that x3m944 lived in CT...

[x3m944]

Sorry to disappoint, you dont need me, you just need the tools and parts and you can do for yourself. Just dont listen to people who tell you to buy a 951, listen to people who tell you what to do or not to do to safely get more power. That doesnt mean me, that means people who have dont it and written about it. Lot of good books on the subject.

Heck even DANNO from guru racing ran boost on a NA, he took a NA block and ran a turbo Head on it, worked for a while, but he had issues with to much boost, fuel delivery etc... but it was a nice setup. The turbo head is not a required part, it just holds up to the heat nicely, but you can not port the exhaust side. A NA head can be fully ported, oversized valves or whatever you want. Stainless valves, etc... but thats for serious power, for low end fun, you can keep boost low and the fun on high.

[x3m944]

CJ - nice looking car by the way.

"Things go better with Boost" <-- looking to put that on the top of the front windshield of my car. Just trademarked the phrase. Now if I can just get a quarter everytime someone says it hahahaah... t-shirts, hats, decals... yea thats it, thats the ticket.

[CJFusco]

Dankeshane.

I am neither qualified nor experienced enough to attempt my own custom turbo installation, alas.

In all seriousness, once a few other guinea pi---.... er, people, try out your supercharger setup, that might be the route I follow.

[x3m944]

Well what ever works for you....

Its really not that complicated. But keep in mind, that once I finish the supercharger kits, I have already done a few different turbo setups for the 944 NA including my own Manifolds and a rear mount Setup. Then their are the roots SC setups.

Nitrous, MAF conversion, EFI conversion, etc.... lots of things....

But in the case of Boost, when I built my setups the idea was something that anyone could duplicate. Low Cost, bullet proof, etc...

[user426]

I NEED POWER NOW.......Is the kit ready for prime time.....????

[pokey]

Let him fix his clutch so he can finish testing, sheesh. People have no patience. Now you could just ship the prototype out here to CA and let me finish testing for you...

[x3m944]

No the kit isnt quite ready, its bloody close, but not quite. As stated I need to do that clutch and then I can finish testing. Then its a matter of production. Talking to some local shops about farming out some of the misc parts for the kit. But thats down the road.

I am also getting a lot of requests off site about my turbo propane conversions, so guess I might have to focus on that soon as this is done.

Propane rocks, I can honestly say I am going to convert the 931 to propane and crank up the boost, soon as I am able. But propane is a great way to cheat when it comes to boost, since its research octane rating is 110-120.

I am getting a lot of requests for prototypes for testing, but honestly while I could do that, I would have to charge for the supercharger and a basic kit. Sure it would be less than the finished kit, but I can tell you right now no one has come up with the cash, so you guys got to wait on me to finish it, then its a free for all.

Anyway... yea got her up on jack stands... got to do the clutch and the lower control arm bushings.

All that hard driving takes its tool... but she sure holds up well in the 100 degree weather... stupid heat index.