Hybrid HP. Nuff said.

Sternn · 02-19-2003, 12:58 PM

83 NA 460 HP?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2403408314&category=6434

Maybe ripping out the old engine and throwing a damn chevy in it is a good thing after all...

gearhead290 · 02-19-2003, 02:06 PM

I like my rumblin V-8s and all, but nothing compares to the TSHHH of a turbo!

944play · 02-19-2003, 03:15 PM

How on earth do the porsche tarnnys hold up with all that power????

Razor944 · 07:25 AM

if u want a good conversion that still keeps the looks stock check out renegade hybrids. Basically you take the lt1 and drop it in w/ a 2000 conversion kit you have around a 300 hp porsche 944. costs about 4k +/- when your done, but damn.. that would be a sweet ride. And gearhead.. you would not hear that tshhh of the turbo... all u would hear is the rumble of the exhaust from the v8 passing the turbo.

cliff · 02-20-2003, 09:15 AM

Actually the trubo motor is lighter than the LT1 and with a few mods can be made to throw down in excess of 300 hp. So you now have the same power from a lighter motor.

Acceleration = Force/ Mass

Power to weight ratio on the turbo will be better than the chevy conversion.

The turbo still comes out ahead.
Also, the turbo has a stronger tranny to boot which is designed to handle the increased power better.

Sell the NA for $2000 - $4000 and with the $4,000 spent on the conversion, put it towards the cost of a turbo and and you got a real nice condition turbo.....which is faster than the chevy conversion. Also, you are left with a pure porsche in the manner it was mean't to be.

fty · 02-20-2003, 11:24 AM

I like cliff's idea..but....it is cool to have a NA sleeper...muhahahhaa

Moneyguy1 · 02-20-2003, 04:49 PM

And at the same RPMs, the four has half the power strokes of a V8 per unit of time, not to mention the four is more stressed when trying to deliver the same HP (or torque). The PSI in the cylinders goes up or the RPMs increase to deliver the same number of power strokes per unit of time. If the PSI increases (via a turbo), the stress on the head, lower end, etc increases. Simple physics. The only thing that saves the average turbo engine from grenading is that the turbo is a "sometimes" device, only producing the additional power for short periods of time.

Frank B · 02-20-2003, 04:58 PM

oh my god. Sleeper?..I haven't heard that one in maybe 15 years?.. I had a friend who had the ugliest dodge dart you could possibly imagine.

He dropped a Hemi in it with his Pappy.. it was the redneck moonshine runner if there ever was one, skinny tires and all, 1 hubcap, green with rust and brown primer. it was a riot.
Hey! aint choo got a Hemi in dare?!

hehe

Razor944 · 02-20-2003, 07:07 PM

fine then... lt1 turbo

cliff · 08:24 AM

If the turbo motors really are that stressed, then why are they still around. The fact is that yes, there is more stress on the engine components, and that is why a turbo motor is beefed up to handle the extra stress unlike the NA motor. The turbos easily run into the 200K + mileage range, so it is not a matter of dependability. So the arugument about greater stress etc. is flawed.
Also, we still have to realize the basis of all this. The Turbo still has a lighter motor and hence a lighter car overall with the same amount of power. It is improper tuning that results in motor destruction, which can happen with any motor even an LT1. Granted, tuning is more important on a turbo because of the forced induction and the hence the fear of going lean, but Porsche has taken care of this for us with the BOSCH Motronic DME and KLR which are standard on all 951s ;-)

Also the fact that the turbo is a sometimes device has nothing to do with it. Improper air-fuel ratios is what results in damage. This usually happens when people raise the boost way above stock without raising the fuel level to match....they end up running lean and blow the head gasket.

scottmandue · 02-21-2003, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cliff
If the turbo motors really are that stressed, then why are they still around. The fact is that yes, there is more stress on the engine components, and that is why a turbo motor is beefed up to handle the extra stress unlike the NA motor. The turbos easily run into the 200K + mileage range, so it is not a matter of dependability. So the arugument about greater stress etc. is flawed.

I'm not sure they are getting 200K out of turbo's between rebuilds... N/A's yes.
someone said "Porsche didn't invent the turbo... they have just done the best engineering with it" or something like that.
I'm sure moneyguy will have a better response.

As for me I would love to test drive a 951 or a 944 350 any day!

Brandon85-944 · 02-21-2003, 12:32 PM

Razor Razor Razor..... when are you goign to learn.

Maybe 4k for your engine swap...but what about your transaxle...need a new one to handle the power...more money....cool concept though.

By the way I'm guessing that the link at the bottom of that ebay page is in reference to the car. Not a very good looking car so IMHO not good advertisement for renegade hybrids.

lol

Moneyguy1 · 02-21-2003, 06:32 PM

Cliff, not arguing, but my experiences with turbos goes all the way to the Corvair Corsa (164 in cubed, 180 HP). A good little engine without all the bells and whistles that modern turbos have, such as wastegates, etc. A small displacement engine can be made to putout a considerable amount of HP. I have even hotrodded Pinto 4 bangers. However, there are certain physical limitations. One, for example, is heat dissipation. Asking a small block to put out gobs of HP on a continual basis will result in massive heat buildup. See how long a 951 will run constantly at top speed. Not talking track, because even track is intermittent duty. When I worked in research at GM many years ago, we tested turbo engines at max output to destruction in many cases (all types). In every case, temperature increased dramatically if the engine were loaded and ran at maximum output for more than a few minutes. Some lasted longer than others, and those were the larger displacement lower boost units. Aside, the more cylinders, the smoother the engine operates. Believe it or not, odd numbers of cylinders results in the best of all cases for smoothness. Look at the 944 engine. Heavy balance shafts required to prevent the engine from tearing loose at the 4000 rpm point. Neither the Audi 5 or the VW VR6 require such a setup.

There is an old engineering adage re: automobile engines. There is no replacement for displacement. Case in point. The first 911 models were 2 liter. If I recall, the last air cooled version was 3.6.

It's all in the engineering and the purpose for which the engine was designed. Two aspects to power: One gets you up there and the other keeps you up there!!!!

As far as the transaxle of the 944/951 being able to handle the additional torque of a V8, they are, according to factory figures able to hold together up to 325 HP at the flywheel. If I were to do such a swap, I would probably elect to go with the Buick V6. Still a considerable increase in displacement and torque over an NA, and can be gotten with boost. Not to mention more room to work with!!!!

Have fun!! There is always room for the experimenters. If there were not, we would be corresponding by smoke signals and discussing whose horse is faster!

Cheers!

Bob S.

Razor944 · 02-21-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brandon85-944
Razor Razor Razor..... when are you goign to learn. Maybe 4k for your engine swap...but what about your transaxle...need a new one to handle the power...more money....cool concept though.

Concept?? its no concept my dear brandon85, its reality. First you get an lt1, most likely out of a wrecked car and yank all then engine and sell whats left thats salvageable. If you get the right car you can easily break even. Then you yank the engine out of your 944, depending on if it runs, leaks oil.. etc etc.. you can sell it for a good few hundred. So now you have the engine and some extra spending cash from selling your engine. Now you yank out your transaxle for a good 500. Now from the money from the transaxle and then engine you should have enough to buy a turbo transaxle. The turbo transaxle has enough beef to handle the power of an lt1. So now basically you spend 2k and buy the renegade conversion kit and now you got yourself a v8 hybrid in your 944. ohh btw the transaxle in the n/a 944 can handle the power put out by the lt1, just i would prefer the turbo transaxle because of the favorable gear ratios.

And i quote
"The 944 torque tube and trans-axle remain stock and in their original locations. These components can handle the power output of mild performance motors when used in street driven applications. However, the 944-turbo trans-axles are stronger and have more favorable gear ratios for the V-8 application." (renegade hybrid's info file).

So about 2k, some resources, time, and technical know how this conversion is not too bad, and is very easily done. Conceptualize that.

Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn · 02-21-2003, 09:25 PM

razor944

I´m in the same research as you, if my 924 turbo have the 30230200 trans I will do the conversion.
I already have the lt1
Today I asked to renegade the cost of the basic kit, hope tomorrow I will know.
I don´t know about the brake modification for valve cover clearing.
I have 4 lug then I problably upgrade to something better. and five lug.
I thought to use a new painless harness to do the conversion but I saw in the renegade page that they sell the harness and we can use the 944 senders, we need to send our tach to recalibrate.
The radiator sounds expensive, maybe we can use a micro fin becool aluminum radiator (vette) because are small and probably one of the best but are not cheap.
In the web page don´t say anything about the front suspension, I supose we will need a harder setting.
I will modify a little the lt1 because the gear ratios of the 944, then I will install a tpis cam, pocket porting on heads, headers and chip about really 300 hp at rear wheels.

this conversion will not be cheap, will be a lot more than 2 k, I already have the car and the engine. I don´t have access to a 951 buf if I live in usa like you I wil go for a 951.
If my car don´t have the 944 trans I will send it to the yunk

AaronM · 02-21-2003, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Heavy balance shafts required to prevent the engine from tearing loose at the 4000 rpm point. Neither the Audi 5 or the VW VR6 require such a setup.

Actually, an inline 6 and a 60 degree V-12 are the only balanced engines (practically speaking). An I4 is unbalanced in both the second order forces, while a V6 is unbalanced in one of the second order forces. Only I6 and V-12s are balances in both first order and both second order forces.

Aaron

Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn · 02-21-2003, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Actually, an inline 6 and a 60 degree V-12 are the only balanced engines (practically speaking). An I4 is unbalanced in both the second order forces, while a V6 is unbalanced in one of the second order forces. Only I6 and V-12s are balances in both first order and both second order forces.

I´m completely agree.

off course the in line 6 is more balanced engine (120° crank ) than a v8.
The inline 6 are great for high revs and the v8 for torque and I´m not refering to the big inches american engines, the sequence of the v8 are great for low revs.

944 LT1 · 02-22-2003, 04:58 AM

That car looks like a real "chop job" to me. Also looks like there has been an engine fire. I believe that hood scoop also negates the sleeper effect.
944LT1 Pictures