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Join Date: Dec 2008
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WTB: big red brakes for 1983 944 and all needed adapters

seeing what is out there. got a big v8 400hp SBC in my 83 944 and need to be able to stop it =)

looking to buy everything I need to install big reds on my car. Also would be interested in turbo s brakes for the rear (with whatever adapters needed)
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- 1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S Silver Rose
- 1983 Porsche 944 V8 with SBC 350 (400hp dyno)
- 1988 BMW M5
Old 11-16-2010, 02:37 PM
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Big Reds

I have a set of front and rear never used 993 Big Reds that we had installed on a 944 turbo, but never even rolled a wheel on. I'll check the caliper spacing, but these should fit a non abs 944 and bolt right on.

You can call me at (817)690-6747, as I rarely get on Pelican parts and check my messages.

Don
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Don Istook
Old 11-17-2010, 12:48 PM
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Are you consistently overheating the brakes now? A v8 swap doesn't mean you need bigger brakes unless you're driving at high speed all of the time.

The stock brakes are more than capable of stopping the tires quickly, even with the extra weight and potential speed of a V8 powered 944. Stopped tires = locked up and bigger brakes won't help at all.

Now, how much tire do you have on the road, how sticky are they and are you running into tire lock up or brake overheating issues?

Or are you just after the look of the big reds with the Porsche cast into the side of them?

Options are:

Stock brakes with titanium brake pad backing plates, brake cooling ducts, more aggressive dual-purpose brake pads with braided stainless steel brake lines. All bolts up just like stock, parts are relatively easy to find at a parts store, etc.

Volvo 2-piston front calipers from a 242, etc. w/vented brakes and stock 944 rotors and uprights. Similar as above since Volvo's are so easy to find and it is only a change to the calipers and drilling the caliper to accommodate a single brake line. Cooling ducts, braided lines and master cylinder can stay the same.

Rennbay big brake upgrade kit (uses Wilwood calipers) and stock uprights. Good solution, Wilwood parts are pretty common in the performance world, doesn't change the geometry of your front suspension.

944 Turbo brakes (Black Brembos), requires different front uprights (you could lose the stock speedometer drive) rotors, front struts, master cylinder and rear calipers. Depending on the year you choose to source your parts from, could also change the offset of your front hubs and require a wheel change to compensate and clear the larger rotors and calipers.

911 Turbo caliper upgrade (Big Reds), same as above, plus you need the appropriate 911 calipers.

Personally, unless I'm looking for the "look" with the Porsche cast calipers or I'm consistently overheating the brake fluid/pads I wouldn't bother with the turbo brakes unless you luck into a donor.

Good luck with it. Would love to see some pics of your car, if you have them.
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Stefan
Portland, OR
1979 Porsche 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose)
Old 11-17-2010, 02:02 PM
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Ok, Stefan...you say you have a 924 Carrera GTS clone. Well, I owned a real 924 Carrera GTS Club Sport. The car weighed less than the stock 924 Turbo. Did that car have stock 944. or even stock 924 brakes? Of course not. they were nice, big fat Brembos sitting on large discs. Why would Porsche put on larger brakes??? The issue is really heat sink...which the stock discs do not do a very good job of when you have increased the front weight. See Steve Ruiz's article (the StopTech guru), and he will tell you more than you want to know about brakes. you are right...if you are locking up tires anyway, larger brakes won't help...but locking up is not the issue. I want repeated stops time and time again. Our World Challenge VW GTI's stop very well, for a while, with stock brakes...but after lap after lap, and as the heat goes on and the brake pads wear down...they aren't so good. World Challenge has just allowed larger brakes (meaning larger, thicker discs) , which will be StopTechs, on the TC cars because stock brakes won't hold up to the pounding we put on them lap after lap.

The wheel diameter, wheel weight, track, etc. all do play a part in the braking dynamics. But for my money, not just the fact that they do look good...As long as the piston size is balanced to the rears and the weight of the car, you can't have too large of a disc (other than the fact that usually the larger disc does weigh more). On our Grand-Am AUDI S4's, we had a good example of too much front brake...it wasn't the disc, but that the BREMBOs had too large of piston sizes, as we would overheat the fronts. Ruiz at StopTech came up with the permanent fix by engineering the piston size, although it was on a large caliper, to be smaller and to be proportionate to the rears...and used it with a large disc for the heat sink. But, the stock S4 brake was totally inadequate for racing use.
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Old 11-17-2010, 06:51 PM
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I believe that most pre 85's using the Big Red Kits have special spacers that require the Turbo front Spindals and Hubs. (I believe only 1986 951's had them for early offset) This also means using Different/late front Struts since the gaps is 1/8 inch or so different.
If I remember correct, Rears could be snugged up with stand washers between Calipers and mount.
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1987 924S with 968 Drive front to back, Bilstein Insert on mod/stock Struts, 450# Hypercoils, 28mm Torsion Bars, Weltmeister Adjustable Sway Bars, Lindsey 968 Light flywheel, Spec Stage II Clutch, ToYO RA1's, Auto Power Cage & 6 pt Harness, KLA Strut Brace, Greasy hands, heavy foot, and lots of smiles
Old 11-17-2010, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kootsi View Post
Ok, Stefan...you say you have a 924 Carrera GTS clone. Well, I owned a real 924 Carrera GTS Club Sport. The car weighed less than the stock 924 Turbo. Did that car have stock 944. or even stock 924 brakes? Of course not. they were nice, big fat Brembos sitting on large discs. Why would Porsche put on larger brakes??? The issue is really heat sink...which the stock discs do not do a very good job of when you have increased the front weight. See Steve Ruiz's article (the StopTech guru), and he will tell you more than you want to know about brakes. you are right...if you are locking up tires anyway, larger brakes won't help...but locking up is not the issue. I want repeated stops time and time again. Our World Challenge VW GTI's stop very well, for a while, with stock brakes...but after lap after lap, and as the heat goes on and the brake pads wear down...they aren't so good. World Challenge has just allowed larger brakes (meaning larger, thicker discs) , which will be StopTechs, on the TC cars because stock brakes won't hold up to the pounding we put on them lap after lap.

The wheel diameter, wheel weight, track, etc. all do play a part in the braking dynamics. But for my money, not just the fact that they do look good...As long as the piston size is balanced to the rears and the weight of the car, you can't have too large of a disc (other than the fact that usually the larger disc does weigh more). On our Grand-Am AUDI S4's, we had a good example of too much front brake...it wasn't the disc, but that the BREMBOs had too large of piston sizes, as we would overheat the fronts. Ruiz at StopTech came up with the permanent fix by engineering the piston size, although it was on a large caliper, to be smaller and to be proportionate to the rears...and used it with a large disc for the heat sink. But, the stock S4 brake was totally inadequate for racing use.
The GTS was built for homologation and customers to take racing, of course they put big racing brakes on them. The same reason the GT2 and GT3's come with big nasty brake systems. For the track, you would need better thermal management as you are generating a ton more heat when track driving or racing in endurance races, etc.

On the street at 20-70mph in ambient temperatures ranging from -10 to 120 degrees Fahrenheit, you don't want the brakes to take too long to warm up and be effective. How many people with Brembo and other racing brake systems being used on the street do you hear brake-squealing to a stop in the morning? Why? The uber brakes are built to manage the heat of repeated braking from 100mph for laps at a time and they have a specific heat range they are engineered for. Reducing the thermal mass of the rotors with cross-drilling and using more street oriented pads that may have had their edges trimmed will help, but then they'll not be as effective on the track.

Making a brake system work effectively for both street and track is difficult, the use of carbon fiber, kevlar, ceramics and other exotic materials provide this capability at a cost. With steel rotors, you're rather limited since you have to work within the material's capabilities and the temperature range the system works best in. This is why I wanted him to specify what the primary use of the car will be. If he's just mostly driving around on the street with the occasional blast to 100+mph to show off, then stockers will be fine with a few additions to improve thermal management. If he's building a D1 dorifto or a dedicated track car, then I can see increasing the rotor diameter and using multi-piston calipers, external cooling, more aggressive pads, etc.

Ultimately, the tires play a major role in this situation as well. If he can easily lock the brakes up with the brake system he has now, putting bigger rotors and multi-piston calipers probably won't help a damned thing other than making it easier to lock the tires up at will.

Tell ya what though, do what you want, I'm not proclaiming myself an expert on all things braking, suspension, Porsche, etc I'm just expressing a semi-educated opinion that I've formed from reading on the subject and speaking with engineers who design braking systems for major manufacturers, racers who race, engineers that build race cars and work or have worked with CART/Champ Car, IMSA/ALMS, SCCA, etc. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and what works for me, may not work for you and vise versa.
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Stefan
Portland, OR
1979 Porsche 924 Carrera GTS (clone-ish)
1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose)
Old 11-18-2010, 10:42 AM
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i'm just looking to have a cool daily driver, reliable and comfortable on the street and highway with the ability to occasionally show off =)

later may consider tracking but not now
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- 1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S Silver Rose
- 1983 Porsche 944 V8 with SBC 350 (400hp dyno)
- 1988 BMW M5
Old 11-18-2010, 01:20 PM
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Forget big reds and go for 944 turbo S front calipers. They are nice and big and it is not as hard to find the rotors and adaptors for them.

Holding the turbo S caliper and the big red in your hand you will hardly notice the difference. Still very cool and you can paint them red.
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Old 11-18-2010, 02:32 PM
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Edbaus, thanks

however, how much to put the turbo s calipers on my 83?
looked into other options, appears Wilwoods will bolt right on and cost only 750 or so brand new
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- 1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S Silver Rose
- 1983 Porsche 944 V8 with SBC 350 (400hp dyno)
- 1988 BMW M5
Old 11-18-2010, 02:53 PM
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Ed is right about keeping it easy. In this case, you'll need hubs, spindles, rotors and assorted hardware at the minimum to run turbo S brakes on the front. Real nice brakes... As you say, Wilwoods bolt right up.
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Old 11-19-2010, 04:49 AM
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