Going to look at an 83 928 on Wednesday

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-20-2007, 02:48 PM

Quick story on the car after a half hour phone conversation:
Kid bought it from boss, who was the original owner, a year ago. engine runs strong, 4-speed shifts fine but isn't crisp, sunroof leak, paint is good, interior is bad, small hole somewhere in exhaust. Everything e- works according to the kid.

car has 93,000 miles on it.

it is supposed to be a good running/driving car that needs some care. based on the pics, it needs a whole new interior, but that's easy for me.

Timing belt & water pump have unknown history.

Questions: anything I should look for in particular when evaluating the car? How many hours does a typical water pump/timing belt require? Transmission sounds a little sketchy, more than the kid would like to admit I think. any info on these?

I can do pretty much anything on a 911 and am in the middle of a down to smallest component restoration on my E. That said, I've been told by everyone that I'd be foolish to purchase a 928.

true?

best estimate on value range?

Thanks in advance for your help.

psychII · 08-20-2007, 03:06 PM

The only thing foolish about purchasing a 928 is to buy a questionable one without a PPI. However, a PPI can only tell you so much. Doing the work yourself will save you a lot.

Here is a DIY inspection to consider http://www.rennlist.com/techarticles/928/928purchaseinspectfaq.htm

TB/WP, along with the WYIT items, took me a couple hrs an evening for about four days the first time I changed mine (about a month ago). That included cleaning, rebuilding, bagging and tagging. It was kind of fun and not bad at all.

Just make sure you check it out good. These things can get expensive quick, but IMHO, worth it.

Post more details/pics and others can help with the value range.

rhjames · rhjames's Garage

is that a 4-speed auto or did you forget the 928 manual tranny is a 5 speed---it makes a huge difference, although by your shifting comment I suppose you're speaking of a slushbox......

no records on TB/h20 pump aren't a no-seller for me, just figure another $700 for the parts and your labor, and figure you're going to do it if the car has no records of recent replacement.

interior is another rough subject, and can get very, very expensive. door panels from $200 up, the rest is worse unless you get stuff from a wreck. (I have several interiors/pieces---)

exhaust is no big deal, just depends upon what you want it to sound like. (again, I have several replacements/entire systems if you need parts)

price? good question, barring a repaint, anywhere from $500 to near $3000 for that year.

Euro would drive the price up, 5-speed would be better.

bad interior is the killer in your case......you don't want to know what amount I have in my interior build (S4 conversion and recovering everything in leather), but it will be a knock out when done......seats were $300-recover them and door panels was $750, carpet set is $700, recover the rest will be somewhere above $1000. If you go exotic, the cost can skyrocket.......

Short of this, save up your bucks and buy a S4 with records and don't look back.

Danglerb · 08-20-2007, 08:52 PM

Shaun, what are you looking for in a 928?

Its really essential before you make any offer that somebody that knows the 928 well gives it a look over and a candid appraisal.

Two things concern me, the owner history doesn't sound like its been taken care of, and water inside a 928 is VERY bad, wrecks the leather, mold grows, but the worst is what that does to the hundreds of electrical connections.

Buying a 928 as new and in the best condition possible is the SMART move. A move which few of us made,

What seems to be key is if the car suits you, be it a burned hulk or a concourse winner.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-20-2007, 09:51 PM

First, thank you all for the great info. While I am a diehard 911 fan, I've always lusted after a 928, and yes, the lines and the power of the S4 are much more attractive than the earlier cars. This particular car can either be seen as a gift or a curse. I have the potential opportunity to purchase it for $1000. I've already set that as my limit and will walk away from it for $1 more.

what am I looking for? A daily driver. I've got the Jeep as a back-up, but this car will do everything from get groceries to drives to NY for the weekend. The vault-like nature of the 928s appeal to me as does reasonable power (wish it were a euro S).

on the sunroof, the car was garaged all its life, so think I'll be OK there. On records, this is a toss up. I'll have to see what's what when I get there. the engine does have all new vacuum lines IIRC.

I agree buying an 87 S4 for something around $10 - $14K would be a smart move. but the E is taking up all my funds as it is not only a full on restoration, but will also double as a DE car, so a few pricey go-fast parts are in that budget. Even doing all the work and painting it myself, I'll be into a good S4 before I'm done in October.

the transmission is a 4-speed auto. are these typically reliable boxes or something I should be very concerned about?

On the waterpump, Pelican sells for $300 + belt at $40 I think. what else will I get into doing these maintenance items? I'm OK with putting another quick $1000 of preventive maintenance in the car.

So a question on electrical gremlins. is it that components just stop working? I've owned several 911s of all ages and never had electrical problems. is it relays that go bad or grounds (remember my 240Z days fondly where every ground was bad) or random, non-specific "just doesn't work" type things?

thanks again. I'll be sure to take some pictures Wednesday night and post.

Danglerb · 08-20-2007, 11:00 PM

I think you hit all of the don't do it bases, the wrong way.

Should fit in here well.

I'll skip any warning lecture, except to say patience is rewarded when it comes to 928's, and we are all here to help when problems turn up, or you want to talk about a nice day of twisties and the loud pedal.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-21-2007, 05:14 AM

Car-based smart buying decisions have never been a strong point.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-22-2007, 03:04 PM

Just came back from seeing the car. Didn't bother with digitals.

Body: needs minor surface repair all over the place, needs complete paint job. must have sat in the sun a long time, all roof paint is cracked. No dents.

Interior: needs an entire interior. good candidate for "RS" conversion (minimal interior)

Steering/Suspension/Brakes: Excellent. It drove very well.

Exhaust: has some issues, probably doesn't need an entire exhaust, but does need more than minor patching.

Motor: all plugs nice light tan. starts up quickly and runs very well. BUT, has an always on fan on the radiator. During driving, needle was at upper white line on temp gauge; on idle, was above white line. Bad water pump? Power was good and inline with what I would expect from 230hp with an auto in a heavy car.

Auto Transmission: felt like a slipping clutch on starting off. Shifted smoothly up and down otherwise. Held in 2nd or 3rd it worked well. BUT, a definite moan was present and sounded more like from the front than from the rear. More noticeable on starting off.

Power windows worked, all lights worked, sunroof worked, mirrors didn't

I offered the kid $500. he's considering it.

the only thing that troubles me is the transmission.

2 questions:
level of difficulty and cost in changing to a 5-speed
if a 300hp euro motor can be found, level of difficulty and cost in putting one in.

I can drop a 911 motor in 2 hours, I imagine this would be more difficult, just doable.

Thoughts?

Danglerb · 08-22-2007, 04:41 PM

Find a good running Euro S 5 spd to start with, pay about $5k to $7k for it, thank me later.

several on ebay right now.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-22-2007, 05:39 PM

Good advice. We'll see what the kid comes back with. an important thing to note is that I can paint the car for $500 in materials in a weekend with 2-stage Glasurit, so the body isn't a big deal.

and I like to restore things: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/354578-early-engine-bay-electrical-panel-restoration-post3424994.html

so this car could be a nice winter project after it comes off the road.

Danglerb · 08-22-2007, 09:20 PM

I look forward to seeing your work, every 928 that stays on road is good thing, plus I will have some parts to sell soon.

mtelliott · 08-23-2007, 05:40 AM

You should read some of my post on how I came to own my 928. Engine had great leakdown, body was in awesome shape, but brakes and suspension needed a lot of work. I picked it up for $2500 based on PPI. Probably have another $4000 in it to get everything sorted out (they are still working on high HC levels) before it becomes my daily commuter car. I drove the 911 I did a full rebuild on myself before purchasing this car. It has a bunch of electronics in it that I'm not readyto figure out so I'm letting the shop figure it out.

Michael

Danglerb · 08-23-2007, 08:10 AM

I was real tempted to give some more great advice, then I started remembering how sick I got of hearing it myself.

Hey, come on in the waters fine.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-23-2007, 08:19 AM

I've seen so many warnings it isn't funny, so thanks for your concern.

My take on this car is I can do a lot of the stuff that prevents people from restoring these cars, like paint. if I had to spend $5K on a paint job, this wouldn't even be a consideration. interior is also not a big deal. I've got 20 yards of black alcantera left that I purchased for my 84 Targa. Shouldn't be too hard to fill the dash cracks in with some flexible epoxy, lay a thin layer of closed cell foam down and cover with suede.

From my own investigating, seems like the torque tube is the culprit in the moaning. that is still my greatest concern as well as the temp. Do 928s run at the top white mark normally? Is this a simple (and I use the term loosely) bad water pump?

BTW, when I told my 911/944 friends about looking at this car, the phrase "tower of pain" was consistently used.

mtelliott · 08-23-2007, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

I've seen so many warnings it isn't funny, so thanks for your concern.

From my own investigating, seems like the torque tube is the culprit in the moaning. that is still my greatest concern as well as the temp. Do 928s run at the top white mark normally? Is this a simple (and I use the term loosely) bad water pump?

BTW, when I told my 911/944 friends about looking at this car, the phrase "tower of pain" was consistently used.

My torque tube had new bearings installed so that wasn't a worry for me (receipt showed $1K repair). On a 95 degree day, mine runs at the top white line like you say. I was told that this was the norm but waiting to hear from others on concensus.

$500 would be a good price as long as their's no rust. I rebuilt my 911 engine and for some reason, the 928 intimidates me similiar to the 993 engines. To many electronics.

Danglerb · 08-23-2007, 03:20 PM

Running hot, I'd check the clutch fan, those are often bad, but radiators also get clogged over time. Could be a leak in the overflow tank or a bad pressure cap too.

Torque tube carries sound, could be torque tube, could be transmission or TC bearings, or all of them.

Best plan is to restore the car, pick an area and fix everything "while your in there", then move on to a new area.

I think you are underestimating costs by a factor of 2 to 4, but almost nobody spends more than $25k to $50k fixing one up, and thats no more than a new car of considerably less stature.

Danglerb · 08-23-2007, 03:27 PM

928 doesn't have a lot of electronics, less than half a dozen small boxes that you don't really need to know whats inside of, but its freaking full of relays, mostly different from each other and every other vehicle ever made.

99% of trouble shooting on it can be done with a $20 meter, checking either voltage, or continuity.

And trust me on this, you will make no mistake that some dealer service hasn't made and charged $1000 for anyway.

Once you jump in and try a few things, the water doesn't seem all that cold.

curt_924 · 08-24-2007, 04:39 AM

If I my give my 2 cent.. Having been tempted... 10 years ago by a $5800 car that I still own and am restoring.. these guys are right.. the better the canvas on the onset.. the better the painting. These are NOT cheaply restored (a thought I one had myself) especially the later models..
500 bucks is a great price. But you WILL spend $$$$ getting it running... The 928 is ASTRONOMICALLY expensive to repair... interior.. no problem, you can improvise...
good luck my son.. the journey has begun.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 08-24-2007, 07:47 AM

thanks, yes, I could put a set of Cup II's on the car and triple it's value.

Should hear tonight if it's a deal. it runs and drives right now, which is the only thing going for it.

if it comes through, first thing is to order a water pump and timing belt: that's $150 into it and next weekend's project as well as drop the exhaust and weld up any holes. In the meantime, gut the interior. don't really need one right now and will make a nice winter project reskinning everything in ultrasuede and vinyl.

I don't doubt that I can easily exceed the value of the car in new parts, but between doing all labor myself including paint, it shouldn't be a deal-breaker to get this to be a decent car again.

And if I can drive it while I restore it, so much the better.

BTW, this may make you feel better: I spearheaded this effort, so at least have the stupidity to attempt a 928.

http://www.fasterfasterfaster.com/free911.shtml

tdelarm · 08-24-2007, 09:58 AM

Based on what you’ve written my concerns would be: Engine running on the warm side and transmission condition. I would do a compression check at the very least and inquire if the engine has seen over-temp conditions. (Of course, with abundant honesty these days you know the answer but you’ll have asked at least)

Replacing torque tube bearings is not the end all and transmission problems will break the bank. That said the MB auto boxes are very robust and I have noticed some occasional whine from them (mostly upon engaging reverse) with no residual effect.

The engine is running too warm but the fix shouldn’t break the bank unless the radiator is plugged beyond repair or your have a bad block…that would be bad.

Good luck…sounds like a project. Take pictures.