Manual Steering Rack - Options

[Duckworth]

Does anyone have knowledge for putting a manual steering rack - in place of the power rack ? ?

...I'm aware of the weight up front requiring 'assist', but 'power steering' takes away much of the steering fun of a sports car. I would vote for Manual steering - even if I have to grunt a bit in a parking lot...

Guys have done the conversion successfully in later 911's and 944's, so some option might be available for 928's.

Racks can be quite time consuming to replace - but any info appreciated.

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'80 928

[Danglerb]

Have you driven a 928 yet, it doesn't lack for steering input feel.

I've been told you need to do more than just disconnect the power steering pump, or seals and stuff go bad.

On the 944 you can get a manual rack off a different model, but as fas I know all the 928's used a power rack. Maybe a restrictor in the hose to reduce the assist.

[Duckworth]

Have you driven a 928 yet...(?)

You're right, it would benefit me to get in and drive the car....as far as getting adequate input feel.

Point taken.....

What about this idea : Can a guy reduce the 'amount' of power assist by changing the pullley size ? (Rather than a plugged up line)

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'80 928

[rhjames]

possibly----I suspect it would be similar to installing a larger pulley on the alternator (drag racing engine) to reduce pulley speed.

not sure I would want to do it though, as the feel of the 928 steering is pretty good (my opinion).

I run a 235/35/19 front tire, and I don't think I want to handle a 3300lbs car with that much front tire through the twisties with out some assist....maybe because I handle really huge tires and heavy loads on my 13 axle heavy haul rig all the time.

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[DanielDudley]

The 928 is a very good handling car. very balanced and easy to control. I wouldn't consider myself an expert driver, but I can tell when a shock is weak, and how a car handles without super touchy steering. 911s and 944s have good feel, but a lot of it is extraneous and has nothing to do with how the car is actually handling. If you need great steering input to tell you that the front end is washing out, you are already at a point where there will be a lot of other evidence of it.

With a 928 you can go into a corner at a steady speed. you can throttle down in the corner or accelerate. You can trail brake. None of these will upset the handling. If however you are running small tires, the fronts will wash and you can balance on the throttle, but you will be under tired. I think you need 225 50 16s minimum on the front, and 245 45 16s on the back.

This is standard setup on an S4 BTW, and then you will find that the standard S4 setup for springs and shocks is a little soft, and designed to understeer. This is for the novice, who will normally back off the throttle when going into a corner too fast. In this case weight will be transferred to the front wheels and understeer will lessen without causing the back end to swing out. What most of us want is a little more neutral response, possibly stiffer springs and a set of decent shocks. At this point a 928 is going to feel like a sports car. Most of the imput you are going to feel is going to come out of your seat and your body. You will percieve that the weight is all going to the front out side corner or more to the middle or back. Get into a steady state corner and roll on or off of the throttle and you will see what I mean.

That is where your feel will come from in a car like a 928. Well set up, they drive a lot like a late model viper, with about the same inputs, but less power. With time behind the wheel, 928s seem to shrink and become lighter and more agile. Also, they corner very flat, and convey a sense of incredible stability. They encourage one to drive faster, and compel many to seek out superchargers, free flow exhausts or other power enhancing goodies. ARRRR.

BTW, most modern supercars have power steering. The 928 was not the first, but it was one of the first to get it right. Zoom Zoom

[rhjames]

I would also encourage you to check out your local PCA chapter's DE classes, particularly of you are a novice turn-a-corner driver like me......

no matter how hard a trash my Euro at Texas World Speedway, my 19 inch tire/wheel setup sticks in every corner.

it makes the Vette drivers really nervous......

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[Normy]

Cars without power steering:

If you really want to drive a 928 without power steering, then ask the owner of one to remove the power steering belt. The best way to do this is to buy one, and then ask the owner to let you drive his/her car after you've snipped the belt. You'll find the steering VERY hard to turn. Not too bad at speed, but parking will be terrible!

To answer your real question: Unlike the 944, there are no low-ratio manual steering racks for 928's. That doesn't mean that it can't be done- but the cost is the issue, since you're going to either be 1. Trying to fit a rack from another car [good luck-!], or commision a metal shop to produce for you a custom pinion and rack set [$!] that will allow you to drive this car without power steering.

Zims in Dallas has a rebuilt rack for sale for $259. Their customer service is horrible, and the rebuilt rack they sent me in 2002 just failed... but they are the cheapest thing going.

That, or call your drive a "workout"-

N!

[Duckworth]

To answer your real question: Unlike the 944, there are no low-ratio manual steering racks for 928's. That doesn't mean that it can't be done- but the cost is the issue, since you're going to......commision a metal shop to produce for you a custom pinion and rack set [$!] that will allow you to drive this car without power steering.

Nice feedback thus far....but I'm unhappy that converting to a manual rack is seen as a white elephant - (since apparently few (if any) guys have ever desired a manual rack as an option). All the enthusiasts, racers etc. and so on --- surely there are others out there.... Not just those who are keen about h.power - but guys like myself who think the idea of a manual rack ratchets up the 'character' of the car imo.

Does anyone here think we should pool our resources here to commision a shop to machine the very first 928 Manual rack ? ? ? ? ?

Here we are as (Shark owners) and have zero options, and 944 and 911 guys have the choice. Normy nailed it as far as what would do it --- a 'custom pinion and rack' set.

KennedyEngineering does a ton of Porsche work (?) Hmmmmm.

Gentleman, sharpen your pencils.....and let's work together to make it happen !!!




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'80 928

[Normy]

You probably don't want a custom rack and pinion. This car isn't light- 3300 pounds. None of us care if it is hard to parallel park [if we cared we be driving G35's....], but a low-ratio rack and pinion would turn your 928 into a '77 DeVille. Two turns of the wheel in order to make a 90 degree turn...

You don't want that.

N

[Danglerb]

Most people find the 928 steering PLENTY heavy. Drive a few cars and find out for yourself before you ramp up the engineering program. Reducing the power assist wouldn't be rocket science either, change a pulley, a spring, that sort of thing.

[Duckworth]

...but a low-ratio rack and pinion would turn your 928 into a '77 DeVille. Two turns of the wheel in order to make a 90 degree turn...

Agree 100% Normy. The hope was to alter the rack --- but without the overdone ratio, that you're describing.

Huh...

What if the total number of turns added was 1 - 2 ..... lock to lock.

...admit it's not lookin' real great at the moment.

Plugs and pulleys ....... and likely no custom rack to fabricate - if Normy is correct.

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'80 928

[Danglerb]

Seriously on the drive a "few" cars, I have two, US 83 and Euro 84, and the steering is much lighter on the 84 than the 83. Exactly what you want may be within the normal variation between cars.

[Duckworth]

Danglerb....you make a good point describing the '83 and '84 you own.

I'm sort of coming from a different direction - where the vision of 'seeing the extra weight' of the pump on the ground no longer needed *and* the subsequent boost on power from the motor - all too good to be true. ( Normy and you are saying it probably is.)


Consider just for debate purposes : From lock to lock the 928 is

2.75 turns of the wheel.

Let's say (for fun) we had a rack at 3.75 turns of the wheel. So you're roughly 30 lbs. lighter with a bit crisper throttle response.

Nonetheless, I admit it may not be practical after all's said and done. Recall that 993 porsches (1995- 1998) offer a manual conversion. True they are different cars altogether.

Say your car(s) were test fitted with the manual rack for free....and you liked it....would that perhaps persuade some folks here ?



Learning more would certainly not hurt anyone.....we can leave the pump right where it is.
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'80 928 5 spd

[rhjames]

I agree with Normy-----at 3300 lbs (my Euro), I doubt the feel would be much better than what it is now.....

I've raced 60's mopar Super Stockers for 3 decades now, with no power steering and skinny front tires------great for a straight line, horrible for turning a corner------I have run my Euro at TWS several times with 225/60/16's on the front, and was glad I had power steering. Now I have 235/35/19's on the front, and there is no way I would do without the P/S.

Not really comparing apples to apples in those examples, but maybe you see my thinking......

However, if you are considering modifying the rack/steering wheel relationship to shorten the number of turns lock to lock----that's a different story.

[Danglerb]

Obviously we are all trying to discourage you, but I don't think you should let that get in the way of doing something you want, and it certainly doesn't mean you won't get plenty of support and suggestion on how best to go down the wrong path.

What might suit you is to put on a smaller diameter steering wheel that scales up the force and responsiveness.

"Say your car(s) were test fitted with the manual rack for free"

I'm not a change nothing purist, but from a purely practical standpoint this car just isn't made out of Lego's, anything you change from stock often has unintended bad consequences. Before I change something, I need to want what the change does pretty bad, and to be honest I just don't follow what making the steering heavier is going to do for me. Its heavy now compared any other car I drive, but its about perfect for my taste.

I may have this wrong, but the guys racing 928's with 400 to 500 lbs removed are all still running power steering aren't they?

[DanielDudley]

My 928 was set up by some of the boys who worked in Al Holbert's racing shop.

The car looks great, sounds great, handles great and takes off like a rocket. In short, a perfectly balanced car. By far the best 928 I have ever driven.

Of course I think I can make it better ! I am resisting the urge.

There are some racer boys over at rennlist. They might give you some input, or have some experience that would be of use at this point. In terms of free HP, disconnect the air pump and AC belts.

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by Duckworth

What about this idea : Can a guy reduce the 'amount' of power assist by changing the pullley size ? (Rather than a plugged up line)

You could reduce it by mounting wider tires...