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ported/reworked Euro heads vs US heads

OK, more pics of my Euro heads fresh from Nickens Bros Racing.

it is very difficult to see the porting work due to the camera flash.

I did set a US head above the Euro's to give some perspective to the difference in the ports---maybe you can see it...I hope so.

anyhow, the difference between the two are these measurements at the port entrance/exit:

US spec intake--23mm exhaust--21mm

Euro spec intake--25mm exhaust--26mm

If you have US spec heads that have the steel insert (or Euro's, for that matter), you can remove the insert and open the port by 2mm. This may improve flow, but I have no numbers to back this up.

the real artwork is inside the porting, which is damn hard to see in a photo----


hope this helps.

---Russ






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Old 11-14-2007, 01:12 PM
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I have a set of US 84 heads, fully ported and 0-ringed. Look similar to these.
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Old 11-14-2007, 01:26 PM
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Looks good, are you going to do anything to the intake runners?

How soon do you think you will have the motor together and running?
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Old 11-14-2007, 01:59 PM
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They look great, not overdone like some heads. It will be interesting to see the results!
Old 11-16-2007, 02:40 AM
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I had a set of mildly ported & polished heads done for a euro '81 car I had: made no difference at all performance-wise, though that was 11 years ago, who knows if something else was askew.

Mark
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Old 11-16-2007, 10:28 AM
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I wish Russ all possible success. I would much prefer to take a set of heads to a shop and say do what he did than, lets try something and see what happens.
Old 11-16-2007, 10:43 AM
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I wish Russ luck too, I just wouldn't do too much given I've experimented 2x with P&P heads: 32v heads on my 3rd 85 car: dyno'd 275/275 with exhaust & chips with perfect cam timing, + the euro that probably made about 260rwhp or so back when (no dyno, just seat-of-the-pants).

My current 86.5 car makes over 300rwhp/tq on a stock motor, AA chips + SMT-6 correction, and my exhaust (manifold-back w/o cats but with 4 mufflers). I think tuning is much more important on these finicky motors given that the LH was so primatively tuned at the time: looking at any air-fuel chart from a dyno will show most '85-86 cars maps' are allll over the spectrum.

Mark (here's my dyno as I started tuning my current 86.5 car with the SMT-6).

My car showed to be tuned pretty tight before I put a proper wide-band on it: my narrow was semi-stable at about .8 too rich the entire way, so once my 2nd run (both runs shown below), I pulled out about .4 AF and you can see the result.

Now I'm re-tuning again to get the 30# units perfect.


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Old 11-16-2007, 01:36 PM
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Whats "SMT"?

I think the basic trouble is that the 32v heads and intake were a very nice improvement, and 99% of normal people lost interest in working on the 16v heads and bought a 32v. That 86 Greg reworked the heads on sounds like a monster, and I'm not sure anything remotely streetable in a 16v is going to come close NA. Maybe thats why the idea of trying is so appealing.
Old 11-16-2007, 07:43 PM
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I am confidant the Euro hybrid will be a great project, as there are several others that are in the build process as I write this.

one will be a 600hp monster (NOS assist) and there are a few others of various configurations...

I went down this road because of two reasons:

1. my 4.5L is a known bad engine and will require some sort of replacement/repair.

2. the Euro hybrid stuff I got from Stan Shaw was a known competitive engine (he had raced it for several years), with dyno numbers to use for a baseline ---275 RWHP.

In my opinion, the 16V has been largely ignored since the introduction of the 32V engine, so modification and development has suffered. I haven't seen much documented material to show that big power can be made from the 16V (other than SC or turbo work), so I am looking forward to putting some of the more modern approaches to this engine.

--Russ
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:25 PM
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Mark---

it helps to be specific about numbers when doing comparisons (not to be too anal about it), because seat of the pants is just that.....

with my Euro, when Stan ran it, it was a stock 5.0L short block w/stock Euro heads, cams, intake, and throttle body.

I have already started the process on the injection system, making sure that everything is as it is supposed to be, but also putting my own tuning touches on things like fuel delivery, engine fuel lines (CIS), and such....

you'll make more power if every cylinder is doing the same thing--has the same measurements--, and that's where you have to start first.

Once you've begun there, then you can go forward with changing things for a bigger bang.


--Russ
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:34 PM
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I got curious enough I finally tracked down and ordered the Oct 1985 issue of VW & Porsche magazine for the article on porting a set of 16v heads. The short answer from reading it is that I think / hope head porting has improved in 23 years. Lots of improvement was found with the US 928 from porting, about the same as from using Euro parts, just more expensive than Euro parts.

The 32v coming out I think is half the problem, the other half is what do you do with pretty much every other 5.0L sized motor to make power, stroke or RPM, and nobody seems to be wanting to make much power over the stock rpm range with a 928.
Old 11-17-2007, 09:02 PM
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Russ is the diameter of the intake ports still the same as a stock euro?
Old 11-17-2007, 10:39 PM
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AA chips + SMT-6 correction
I tried google with no results. What exactly the SMT-6?
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Old 11-18-2007, 09:00 AM
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No no, make no mistake: I'm sure improvements can be made: I'm just not not sure (with the reported flows and smooth transitions of the factory heads) that all the shortcomings are in the heads: I think the cams and ignition timing have a bit to do with the passiveness of our engines: possibly/probably more so than the heads.

www.perfectpower.com: it's a piggyback unit that works well with the 928: allows you to change fuel parameters for larrger injectors, smoothing out your fuel curves, and etc. I love it, goes in easy. Louie Ott was a supplier for these for a while, I think he's moved on to more popular (and unfort. more expensive for many) options that are probably easier to work with than the SMT-6.
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:40 AM
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If you look at your torque curve and draw a line across at the peak torque value, the practical level of improvement is between what you have now and that line. On your graph thats about 285 ftlbs and 240 ftlbs at 6500, maybe 15%, so maybe 340 hp. Chances are fair to get around that peak hp the low end torque would drop some and the torque peak move up a fair bit.

Without an increase in redline, bore, or stroke, only so much air you can pump through the motor by improving the cylinder filling.
Old 11-20-2007, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhjames View Post
I won't be doing anything to the intakes as the intake ports on the heads are port matched to the Euro intake runners.

probably won't have it running any earlier than next spring, as I have other commitments (wife wants a new pair of t**s ).

BUT---I am making progress.....

---Russ
Sounds like a worthwhile delay. Be sure to post pics!
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Old 11-21-2007, 08:53 PM
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I've been looking at the cam profiles Jon Milledge does for the 944 (and also can make for the 928). He goes up to a .595 lift, but thats for 8200 rpm redline. For a power band of 4000 to 6900 he is using .503 lift. No way I can guess how things might change when you don't have a race classification rule book limiting what you can do, but I wonder if .550 isn't going push the power band too high.

Euro heads have the valves in a depression slightly smaller than the cylinder diameter. I've been wondering if at least for the intake valve, porting the depression all the way to the actual edge of the cylinder wall might help with shrouding. With 104mm bore it would be even more tempting, have you done anything like that?
Old 04-28-2008, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danglerb View Post
I've been looking at the cam profiles Jon Milledge does for the 944 (and also can make for the 928). He goes up to a .595 lift, but thats for 8200 rpm redline. For a power band of 4000 to 6900 he is using .503 lift. No way I can guess how things might change when you don't have a race classification rule book limiting what you can do, but I wonder if .550 isn't going push the power band too high.

Euro heads have the valves in a depression slightly smaller than the cylinder diameter. I've been wondering if at least for the intake valve, porting the depression all the way to the actual edge of the cylinder wall might help with shrouding. With 104mm bore it would be even more tempting, have you done anything like that?

I would be interested to know what the duration (@ .050 lift) is on these cams......

-R
Old 04-29-2008, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRobinson View Post
No no, make no mistake: I'm sure improvements can be made: I'm just not not sure (with the reported flows and smooth transitions of the factory heads) that all the shortcomings are in the heads: I think the cams and ignition timing have a bit to do with the passiveness of our engines: possibly/probably more so than the heads.
Increasing the ignition advance on my 4.7 made a huge difference in apparent power. Literally felt like i added a 50hp shot of NOS or something.

Huge.
Old 04-29-2008, 08:35 PM
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http://www.jmengines.com/index.htm Jon Milledge has the cam grinds, well known in 944 circles for making serious power NA. I don't know how many of the grinds have been tried on the 928, but at least in 'theory" what works on the 944 should work on the 928.

Here is the info on a couple cams.
P/RH 8SR-14 for 944 performance/928 race
Best power band 4000-6900 rpm. 1000 rpm idle. .503 cam lift (In & Ex) with near stock base circles. Uses 944 Turbo or race valve springs (recommended) for best results. Motronic chip must have rev limit raised for best results. 25+ bhp over stock camshaft with race exhaust. Needs custom Motronic chip or aftermarket engine management. No equivalent competitors cam. Used where lift is un-restricted but racing cam is allowed.

JME 8SR-14 Atmo
Intake 243 duration at .050"
0.5 gross lift
Ex. 243 duration at .050"
0.5 gross lift
STD base circles - No, slightly undersized.
Stock lifters - Yes
Stock timing - No, adv.
Stock springs - Maybe
LSA 114 deg.
Application - Modified to 230 bhp (944 NA).

Race Solid Lifter RS 304M2/280M-10 for 944/928
Best power band 5000-8200 rpm. 1300 rpm idle. Off idle lope. .595 cam lift In, .510 Ex. Race solid lifter, valve spring & retainer package required. Motronic will not work. After market engine management only. Bhp available depends upon tune of engine. No equivalent competitors cam. Used where lift is un-restricted but racing cam is allowed. Best results with unrestricted intake, fully ported cylinder head with larger valves, racing header.

JME 304M2/296M-10
Intake 271.7 duration at .050"
0.6 gross lift
Ex. 265.6 duration at .050"
0.53 gross lift
STD base circles - No, Req. custom valve and lash caps.
Stock lifters - No
Stock timing - No, adv.
Stock springs - No
ntake & ex. LSA 110 deg.
Application - Req. unrestrict. Solid Lifter Atmo Full race to 8000
Old 04-29-2008, 11:12 PM
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