928 vs Z28 Camero

[harborman]

Interesting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NBOjGyGmz4&feature=youtu.be

Funny at the end of the video you can see the Z28 do a big spin out!

[Danglerb]

Interesting, the cars were close with the edge going to the Z28, but how much of that was car, driver or track?

Track was Summit Point 2 mile road course and times were 140:00 and 138:30. Anybody know some times that are common for that track and the 1983 era of stock cars and tires? Google didn't tell me much, but it "seems" like 1:40 is respectable for a street car of that era.

[harborman]

Originally Posted by Danglerb

Interesting, the cars were close with the edge going to the Z28, but how much of that was car, driver or track?

Track was Summit Point 2 mile road course and times were 140:00 and 138:30. Anybody know some times that are common for that track and the 1983 era of stock cars and tires? Google didn't tell me much, but it "seems" like 1:40 is respectable for a street car of that era.

Most American cars at that time were good in a straight line, just don't make any quick turns. Most have leaf springs. The Z28 was not stock, had some suspension mods done and still spun out. Of course there were the drivers of both cars and their ability to take into consideration. The video made an attempt to say, you can go faster in a Z28 at a fraction of the price of a 928. That was my impression anyway.

[tmpusfugit]

It looks to me as if there was a preconceived notion that the Z-28 would be the out and out favorite. I suspect any of us who have driven a GM car of this period as well as our 928's see a bit wrong with this supposed test. The '83 928 shows either 234 hp for the American version and about 300 hp for the Euro version, and they report the Z-28 at 192 hp, yet it had better acceleration at only 30 pounds lighter? Somebody is telling stories and they don't make sense. They must have disconnected a couple of plug wire on the 928 and let their granny drive it. The Z 28 wallows all over the place and they say little while the 928 leans heavily per their comments? What they show while the 928 is allegedly leaning is a 928 proceeding pretty decently around a corner in a pose that looks very flat to me... I like Z-28's but I don't like biased reporting. Tell me some lies that are graceful enough I can pretend to believe them...

[harborman]

Originally Posted by tmpusfugit

It looks to me as if there was a preconceived notion that the Z-28 would be the out and out favorite. I suspect any of us who have driven a GM car of this period as well as our 928's see a bit wrong with this supposed test. The '83 928 shows either 234 hp for the American version and about 300 hp for the Euro version, and they report the Z-28 at 192 hp, yet it had better acceleration at only 30 pounds lighter? Somebody is telling stories and they don't make sense. They must have disconnected a couple of plug wire on the 928 and let their granny drive it. The Z 28 wallows all over the place and they say little while the 928 leans heavily per their comments? What they show while the 928 is allegedly leaning is a 928 proceeding pretty decently around a corner in a pose that looks very flat to me... I like Z-28's but I don't like biased reporting. Tell me some lies that are graceful enough I can pretend to believe them...

I could not say it any better! I think it was an old Motor Week video as I recall. I like PBS but forget their biased news and some of the Motor Week reviews. I was almost laughing at his comments in the video on the 928 handling as the Z28 did a big spin out.

[Danglerb]

Since we are taking a few swings; ...

Rodent Track had a meaningful comment about the 928 when it first came out, there best drivers were still looking for the real limits of the 928 after 10 laps. Chances are good these drivers were no better and not even close to the limits of the 928.

We are shown the best lap time, for one lap, and the Z28 was seeing a lot of pit time for fan belt issues etc. Times for 5 laps might have been very different with the brakes fading on the Z28 and other issues showing up.

Tires could be a big factor.

This was around the time of the IROC Z28, so its likely suspension enhancement was well underway two years earlier in 83.

[tmpusfugit]

Interesting the tires are Goodyear Eagle GT's. A really great tire in my limited experience. My first set surprised me considerably. I bought a new 1980 turbo 280 ZX (180hp) that came with Toyo tires, It would smoke the tires in first and second, third would break loose more than bit, and 4th and 5th a quick shift at full throttle would make for a solid chirp. Replaced them with the Goodyear Eagle GT's. The tires would break loose just a bit in first under a very aggressive launch, 2nd and above the only thing letting go was the clutch slipping a bit. Tires stuck like glue. Cornered on proverbial rails. I think these were the best tires I ever owned, before or after this car. At least for the day they were tremendous. I have had successor Eagles more recently on a pickup or 2...not the same...

[Danglerb]

Goodyear Eagles ruined my first 928, an 81 AT. I put on a set of Bilsteins and the Eagles and it became impossible to have fun on the street at any sane speed. It stopped when I pressed on the brakes, stopped faster if I pressed harder, turned when I turned the wheel, and had no slip from the little 4.5L motor. Nice for trips, otherwise boring. Six months later I traded it for a new 944T.

[harborman]

Originally Posted by Danglerb

Goodyear Eagles ruined my first 928, an 81 AT. I put on a set of Bilsteins and the Eagles and it became impossible to have fun on the street at any sane speed. It stopped when I pressed on the brakes, stopped faster if I pressed harder, turned when I turned the wheel, and had no slip from the little 4.5L motor. Nice for trips, otherwise boring. Six months later I traded it for a new 944T.

I have replaced my Goodyear F1's with one made by Hankook, an all weather high performance tire. The Goodyears became very noisy and bad on tire wear.

[jadewombat]

I'm not buying it either. Technology wise there's no comparison here in the early 80s, an aluminum block SOHC, FI'd, well balanced car vs. an iron block, pushrod, carb'd, KITT wanna be.

These generation Camaros had very weak frames. I helped a kid in 1999 redo the front brakes on his '89 and we got the calipers, rotors, etc. off. The car was on jack stands all torn apart and then we couldn't get the hood open! The frame had flexed so much that the hood wouldn't we release. We tried everything then wound up putting the rotors and wheels back on to set it on the ground and "pop" it released.

That being said the big 3 american engineers have upped their game quite a bit in recent years. I love seeing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqkyWhVBSKU

[harborman]

GM has kept the V8 push rod motor and really improved it. Lots of HP now with super charging. The Z06 now with 640HP and beyond. All kinds of other improvements which comes along with new technology and materials. Of course Porsche always seems to be a step ahead and back in the 80's, years ahead of GM.

[5l32v4c]

I have yet to drive my 928 as I'm doing some engine work. It was fundamentally sound when I bought it three years ago but had sat for a number of years and the service history was not very clear. It had an apparent head gasket issue so the engine had to come out I am a victim of the "while you're in there" trap - the costs keep mounting and the end is not yet in sight.

I have a good friend with an '84 Camaro Z28 that he has owned since new and he just shakes his head when I show him some of the over-engineered aspects of my engine. While he is enjoying his car in the sun with the t-tops off, I am still working on mine, mainly due to the insane cost of parts.

I have loved the 928 ever since I firsr set eyes on one as a boy and the thought of driving it aronud is what keeps me going with this project. I have to say, though, if it does not prove reliable after all this work, an American-made muscle car is going to be a likely replacement.

Which is the better car? Back when they were both new I would say, in terms of engineering, performance and build-quality, the 928 was, by far, the better car. Today, the better car is one that you can drive.

[harborman]

Unfortunately pulling the engine is major work and costly. Nothing cheap on the 928.

[stepson]

Originally Posted by harborman

Unfortunately pulling the engine is major work and costly. Nothing cheap on the 928.

Tensioner arm bushings are about $2 each, LOL. That's pretty cheap, I think.

But overall, you are definitely correct.

[Danglerb]

Originally Posted by harborman

Unfortunately pulling the engine is major work and costly. Nothing cheap on the 928.

It is until you have spent a few weeks extra time working around not pulling the engine.

Harbor Freight 1 ton shop crane works fine for most people, easy to sell when you are done, and if anybody local has one usually they are happy to let somebody else borrow/store it for a month or so.

Once the engine is out so many things become much more practical to take care of.

[harborman]

Originally Posted by Danglerb

It is until you have spent a few weeks extra time working around not pulling the engine.

Harbor Freight 1 ton shop crane works fine for most people, easy to sell when you are done, and if anybody local has one usually they are happy to let somebody else borrow/store it for a month or so.

Once the engine is out so many things become much more practical to take care of.

More power to you! I would not attempt it today as I did with my 67 Vette years ago. I will do the light stuff but nothing that aggressive. Fortunately my 928S just has some oil leaks, I think cam cover and I keep putting it off and just driving. It just turned 70K this past year. I call it my new, old 928S!

[5l32v4c]

I guess after you've done it a few times pulling an engine becomes easier. For me, it was a big deal and I did not want to do it again. It has taken quite a while (as money permits) and has been ridiculously expensive to rebuild an engine that, quite honestly, probably didn't need it.

Still, it's the cost of parts that keeps the initial cost of the car down (looking for the silver lining here). Sadly, over time, a lot of 928s will become scrap as people get into them for cheap without appreciating how much parts cost. On the plus side, those that are left will hopefully be good ones so their value will increase.