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New to me 1984 ROW 928S Euro

Long time no see 928ers. I just bought a nonrunning 1984 928S Euro ROW project car. I had seen the car sitting years ago and have chased this car in hopes of buying it for about 5 years. This is the 310HP hotwire version.The interior looks decent but is going to need some work. The body is excellent with no dents anywhere and original paint.
I'm trying to slowly get some work done on it, but would like to share my progress and get some information at the same time. It's not running at this time.
I'll start with the good. The car has fuel pressure, new fuel and clean tank. The fuel pump works, and the tach bounces when I turn on the key. The engine turns over well with no noises or scrapes. The engine oil looks good. The engine has full antifreeze. The timing belt looks fairly new and the cams appears to be in time.
So far I have not had time to see if the injectors are pulsing or not. I'll know by tomorrow. I do know that the car is not firing which would indicate that the EZF ignition control unit is toast. I believe the LH is working but have not had time to troubleshoot it fully. I've only had the car about two days.
Questions:
1)Does anyone here have a copy on PDF of the 928 EZK and LH troubleshooting guide by Tecknic? I have the factory manuals, but they are hard to understand.
I'm hoping to be able to afford a used EZF unit to start trying to get moving on this project soon. Let me know what you guys think.
2)Is this harness to the flywheel sensor acceptable and what are the options for replacing it (see photo 4)?
3) Any tips on troubleshooting the EZF and LH?
I'm pretty sure this car is an early twin distributor non interference 4.7 engine, but does anyone know the VIN parameters to verify?

This car was running and driving fine at one time, but quit running one day at which time the owner Jeff stored the car in his dry garage. Jeff died 3 years ago and the car switched hands. It's been lingering around the parking lot of a local auto shop for two years because the owner bought a used (also water damaged) EZF and it did not fix the car. I have two EZF units but neither of them fire the car. So I made a deal to pay the bill and got the title for a few hundred dollars. The car is now back under cover in my barn for the first time in about three years.
I know this is going to be a big project but I'm dedicated to getting this car running at whatever cost because to me it's the pinnacle of 1980's 928's. I would appreciate any information that will help me from you other ROW owners.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads26/16996053_1417652888306456_6171821554774819899_n148 8447939.jpg[/img]



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Old 03-02-2017, 01:10 AM
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Very cool! congrats. PM sent
Old 03-02-2017, 02:34 AM
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Sorry I can't answer your questions but cool project and best of luck. The intake still looks beautiful in its battle-worn state
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Nice Find -

It looks like you have landed a great 928 project as a good starting point. Your purchasing persistence definitely paid off. Initially - just determine whether you are looking at an injector or spark problem before buying a bunch of parts. Perhaps someone could even swap out a few known good components with you for troubleshooting. It is easy to start second guessing yourself on a twin distributor car. I realize you mentioned that you've looked at the cam timing marks but I'd check the compression just to definitely eliminate a potential borderline issue. Don't forget to check all the simple (but time consuming) stuff - like all the computers control signal ground points on the engine and above the fuse panel, verify the flywheel signal, voltage dropping resistors on the inner fender beside the distributors, temp II sensor, power relays to computers, etc.... There are always lots of experienced owner/operators here willing to help.

Keep us posted, Michael
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Old 03-02-2017, 06:28 AM
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If the engine is stamped M28.22 (on flat surface at the front of the motor) that's the high compression interference Euro motor with an automatic.
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Old 03-02-2017, 07:21 AM
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It would appear that the CPS harness could be part of your problem. Normally, there is 1 underlying problem that originally causes these cars to stop running. After time in storage and not running, those causes multiply.

At the very least, fix that harness and verify that the wires are connected to the CPS correctly.

Next, I would remove all the injectors and clean them with a Mityvac hooked to the top of the injector drawing a vacuum, a power source hooked to the injector connector with a switch to toggle power off and on, and a bucket of Berryman's B-12. Initially, the injectors will not suck the Berryman's through the injector, but let it work it's magic and toggle the power and it will open those injectors up.
....Or, you can just send the injectors off to be cleaned and flow-matched by Witchunters, Cruz Perfomance, or someone you may know locally.

The EZF on these cars is very stable and I would be very surprised if, in fact, it was the cause of your non-starting issue.

The LH is a completely different story, however.

Have you replaced the 3 relays for the injectors(XVI), ignition/starter(XIV), and fuel pump (XVII)?

I normally replace the relay with a switched jumper on the fuel pump relay circuit to remove that as a possible cause the car won't start while I'm troubleshooting. You can do the same with the injector relay.
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As of today (Thursday) New developments.
Yes, the EZF relay, LH relay, and Fuel Pump relay are all jumped. Number 13 fuse is new.
1)There is no power to the fuel injection connectors.
2)There is no power to the coils
3)I do have RPM signal from EZF on pin 1 of LH plug.
4)Tach bounces all the way around to the other side and then drops when I turn the key. No clicking in the engine to signify a bad LH. The other gauges seem to work fine too.

I did not have time to test anything else today. I will have all day tomorrow to mess around with it and will report back what I find. I found out about the CPS insulated wiring harness and it's just basically wrapped with aluminum. I put it back within the aluminum casing. The wires are all connected. I will inspect the CPS connection tomorrow, and remove it for inspection from the bell housing.
We spoke to a man named Rich today who performs work on these EZF's and mass flow hot wires. Some of you on here might know him? I'm going to send him my EZF and mass airflow meter after I finish basic testing probably tomorrow. I have not followed all of the great advice that you guys have told me about yet, but I'm getting to it. By tomorrow I will know more.
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The CPS harness is shielded. You already know that.

What I was thinking is: verify that those CPS wires are correctly connected. If 2 of the wires are not connected to the correct wires, you might get a RPM signal on the tach, but the overall signal to the computer could be incorrect.

The fuel pump relay gets its ground (in this year model car) from inside the LH. I have had 2 LH computers that had to have the fuel pump relay jumped to get power to the fuel pump. I drove the Stepson all the way to SITM with a fuel pump jumper (switched). It ran great the whole way.

I will almost guarantee that you will not get fuel through your injectors unless you clean them ahead of time. Gotta love that corn syrup residue left by Ethanol.
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Okay, thanks to Stepson I figured out that I did not have the LH fuel injection relay jumped correctly. So I jumped it between 30-86-87 and then proceeded to crank the car with the fuel pump jumped and a brand new relay for the EZF. The car is firing now, but still not starting. I really think that it's flooded from the fuel pump relay running constantly. It is for sure firing on both coils though and the tach has a good bounce to signify that the CPS is working correctly. I should have bought a couple of extra relays while I was in town, but I will pick one up in the morning and replace the fuel pump relay.
Unfortunately the fuel injection is still not getting power to the rail connectors for some reason. I cleaned the injection grounds on the camshafts, but I'm still not getting power to the fuel injector plugs. Do I have to test the injectors while cranking or am I correct that the key just has to be on for the fuel injection rails to have power? Isn't there a cutoff for the fuel injection when the system senses unburned gasoline?
I'm sure the fuel injectors will need to be cleaned and I don't expect it to come to life yet, but I do need to have power at the rails. The car seems to be firing pretty well and it feels so close to just coming to life and idling. It will even fire in two constant bursts and seem like it's going to stay running, but still doesn't. Like I said it feels like it's flooded. I'm going to keep playing with it, and cleaning grounds. If I can get some power to the fuel rails, I'll then pull the injectors and clean them. So let me know what you guys think.
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Okay so upon full inspection of the timing belt the car looks to be out of time. So the engine or multiple valves and pistons may be bent or broken. Pics of the timing gears are as follows. Notice: I found out later that the harmonic balancer should be at the first OT| mark for the Euro. So these photos do not show the timing on the correct TDC crankshaft position, but the cams are still off time with the first OT| mark by about two teeth on each side. I'm not sure if the timing is off enough for it to be damaged or not at this point.
I've read that this car is not interference, but I'm interested to know for sure either way. The VIN is ES840485. M28/22 with engine number 82E05366. I've been searching these threads on pelican and saw someone with a VIN ES841469 that did not have an interference engine. That would appear to be a later number than my car, but we will see. This car has had a compression test in recent years that has come back good on all cylinders, so I'm going to try to proceed with a new belt and some tensioner parts to see if I can get it back in time.
Interestingly enough, I've got the fuel injection pulsing now, and the car was firing (if not oddly) before I realized it was out of time and stopped cranking it. My partner in car crime listened to it and said that it sounded out of time too. So we will see.
Otherwise, I have fuel pressure, spark, compression, and I'm going to see if changing the timing will make it tick over.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 924CarreraGTP View Post
Okay, thanks to Stepson I figured out that I did not have the LH fuel injection relay jumped correctly. So I jumped it between 30-86-87 and then proceeded to crank the car with the fuel pump jumped and a brand new relay for the EZF. The car is firing now, but still not starting. The jumper should be from terminal 30 to terminal 87. Three prong jumper on 84US and earlier cars that used specific relay
Unfortunately the fuel injection is still not getting power to the rail connectors for some reason. I cleaned the injection grounds on the camshafts, but I'm still not getting power to the fuel injector plugs. Do I have to test the injectors while cranking or am I correct that the key just has to be on for the fuel injection rails to have power? Key just has to be on. Isn't there a cutoff for the fuel injection when the system senses unburned gasoline? Not on 84. Only on 89 and newer
I'm sure the fuel injectors will need to be cleaned and I don't expect it to come to life yet, but I do need to have power at the rails. The car seems to be firing pretty well and it feels so close to just coming to life and idling. It will even fire in two constant bursts and seem like it's going to stay running, but still doesn't. Like I said it feels like it's flooded. I'm going to keep playing with it, and cleaning grounds. If I can get some power to the fuel rails, I'll then pull the injectors and clean them. So let me know what you guys think.
Questions answered in paragraph
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 924CarreraGTP View Post
Okay so upon full inspection of the timing belt the car looks to be out of time. So the engine or multiple valves and pistons may be bent or broken. Pics of the timing gears are as follows. Notice: I found out later that the harmonic balancer should be at the first OT| mark for the Euro. So these photos do not show the timing on the correct TDC crankshaft position, but the cams are still off time with the first OT| mark by about two teeth on each side. I'm not sure if the timing is off enough for it to be damaged or not at this point.
I've read that this car is not interference, but I'm interested to know for sure either way. The VIN is ES840485. M28/22 with engine number 82E05366. I've been searching these threads on pelican and saw someone with a VIN ES841469 that did not have an interference engine. That would appear to be a later number than my car, but we will see. This car has had a compression test in recent years that has come back good on all cylinders, so I'm going to try to proceed with a new belt and some tensioner parts to see if I can get it back in time.
Interestingly enough, I've got the fuel injection pulsing now, and the car was firing (if not oddly) before I realized it was out of time and stopped cranking it. My partner in car crime listened to it and said that it sounded out of time too. So we will see.
Otherwise, I have fuel pressure, spark, compression, and I'm going to see if changing the timing with make it tick over.
Yes, engine is not timed right, but probably not so far out of time as to bend valves. There has been discussion as to whether or not earlier 84 Euros are actually interference engines since there is mass speculation they used 83 pistons in the earlier 84 Euro cars.

I would fix the cam timing, clean the injectors and then attempt to start it.
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Timing Belt - Marks

I don't consider myself a 928 Euro specialist by any means but I have helped pull a few Euro motors after their cam timing belt had jumped a few teeth. Once you have reestablished your cam/crank timing marks - you might verify and compare the compression across all the cylinders to eliminate any potential mechanical issue. I've seen where low compression can chase you around a few laps of the Trouble Shooting Chart.

The real test for "a lack of fuel" is give her a brief whiff of starter fluid....

Michael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepson View Post
Yes, engine is not timed right, but probably not so far out of time as to bend valves. There has been discussion as to whether or not earlier 84 Euros are actually interference engines since there is mass speculation they used 83 pistons in the earlier 84 Euro cars.

I would fix the cam timing, fix the jumper for the fuel injection to 30-87-87 and then attempt to start it.
Good info, and this jumper could no doubt be part of my problem. It's raining here right now and I haven't had much time today to work on the car, but I'm going to start trying to get the timing set right and I'll remember to fix that jumper before cranking again.
Yes, from what I understand most of the 84 year was a 9:1 piston rather than the 10.4:1 piston. I understand the 9:1 piston was recognizable by the dish in the top of the piston? I have not looked to see which pistons I have yet.
It kinda makes sense on the road tests that year because one test car only managed 150mph and the other one managed 155mph. One was probably a 9:1 car and the other was a 10:1 car.

It really doesn't make any difference whether I crank it or not now. If the timing was messed up enough to bend valves it wasn't me who did it. The shop I got the car from cranked away on it endlessly before I got ahold of it. So it's pretty much do or die now. I'll see if putting it in time makes it tick over. I'm still not even close to being done with the fuel system, but I know it had pressure when I breached the rails to push out the old gas. So I'll report back what my findings are as I find out more.
Also, JKMcDonald, the starting fluid is next up if it doesn't come to life after I get the timing set, and I'll check the compression.
Thanks guys!
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Aren't you in the Hot Springs area?

I think I tried to catch up to you last time I was in the area. My wife has family in Bismark and we go to a family reunion of sorts there every end-of-June.

If you try the starting fluid/brake cleaner/whatever method, be very careful as a backfire will launch the intake from the top of the engine. I've seen it done. Thank God it wasn't my car nor was it my doing.
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Stepson, Yes, we are in the Spa. You called me one time years ago and wanted to come out here sometime that weekend, but I think we ended up going on a road trip for some honey do stuff that next day and I didn't get back to you. Next time you are close hit me up and come check out this Euro S. We still have the old 911 and 944S2 as well.
BTW, I understand you're supposed to shoot starting fluid under the hotwire in the airflow meter on these models and not past it. I could see that being tricky on these hot wire cars.
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BTW, I understand you're supposed to shoot starting fluid under the hotwire in the airflow meter on these models and not past it. I could see that being tricky on these hot wire cars.
That would be correct. Don't give that platinum wire any reason whatever to go South on you.
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Indishrot 1984 Euro S AT (The Stepson)
Black Metallic 1984 Euro S 5 speed (The Schwartz)
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Stepson, PM sent, but my car doesn't have two 87 terminals on the fuel injection relay. It's a (24) relay with terminals 30-85-86-87. I'm going to double check it, but I'm almost certain of it. I've got the relay here in front of me.
The cams are now back in time with the crankshaft and I spun the engine by hand a couple of times just to make sure. It's dead on.
I just need to figure out this relay thing, and I'm going to give it a crank. I might use some starting fluid if it doesn't do anything. The fuel injectors may still be clogged but I'm going to find out.
So that's where I am today after about 4 hours of work on the car. I know why people don't fool with these cars. There's too much spaceship electronics to figure out. "Ground control to major tom". David Bowie would have lost all hope and cried if the 928 was his spaceship. You've got to be an astronaut to work on these cars. I'm having a good time to tell the truth. This is not a hard car to work on by any means.
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I bought my first 84 Euro back in 2000. I worked on it for 4 years to get it running. Drove it 2X and found it had head gasket issues. I still have it and it's just waiting for me to pull the engine. However I bought the Stepson because I determined I could fix and drive it more quickly than the Schwartz car. Don't get discouraged. The end result will be worth it. The 84 EuroS is a badass car and will set your hair on fire at WOT.

The thing that always frosted me was the lack of wire colors on the factory wiring diagrams for the MY 1984. What intern overlooked that????

Here is a link to a good thread on RL: Spark & Fuel Diagnostics - Rennlist Discussion Forums.

And remember this: IIRC those VW 24 relays don't always match up when what you need is a 53 relay.
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