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New to the 951!

Hi all! Iíve posted on the 951 section a few times now, while working through the purchase decision, but just last week made the decision and brought home this Ď86 951!



Itís driver quality, but low mileage. Needs a lot of little things, such as getting the turn signals working, some small stuff under the hood and the plastic dash trim inserts need to be replaced, but mechanically it's sound. Had belts and water pump replaced before I drove it home. 16 hour drive to SC from MO, and it didnít miss a beat!

And yeah, I know itís been asked before, but how about set of opinions with the technology available in 2019... Iím targeting a solidly reliable car with 300-350 HP, on a budget. What steps should I be looking to take to get to this point?
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Last edited by cfassett; 10-07-2019 at 01:29 PM.. Reason: Pics
Old 10-07-2019, 01:28 PM
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'17 F150
Old 10-07-2019, 01:32 PM
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Ď86 Porsche 951
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Old 10-07-2019, 04:27 PM
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Unless you have records of when the timing belt and water pump were last changed?? That should be step one!

And more HP and Torque, is fairly easy?? Larger exhaust or at least a De Cat pipe, Manual Boost Controller, Larger Fuel injectors, a 3 bar PR and a Max Chip (for more boost) at the minimum and your in 300 hp plus club! Mine ran 18 psi on 91 octane daily without issue.

Lindsey Racing and Vitessracing arfe your go to sources to name a few!


944/951/968 Vitesse Kits
https://www.lindseyracing.com/

So making it faster is no big deal! That is just a matter of the how fast do you want to go $$$.

But Daily Driver ,sigh maybe ... trickier??? It's most likely best if it's not your only car?? Speed and Reference Sensors are common sources of issues these days?? Or if your luck a failed DME Relay?? You should carry spare or just replace it "now" with one from here out the gate.

Solid-State DME Relay (Pump-Prime) ‚ÄĒ Focus 9 Technology, LLC

You do have a 25 year old engine harness and ECU/KLR and most likely the first time you have the old hot restart issue??? It's either the DME or the Speed and Reference sensors?? I'm working on that one now.

And oh yeah do you know when the clutch /PP, was last changed?? Cuz you know ... that's kind of a big one! Not trying to be a "Buzzkill??" I just likes to "keep it Real!" Welcome aboard.

Beautiful car by the way.
Old 10-07-2019, 05:51 PM
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Thank you! I had the belts and water pump replaced before making the drive home. That was a big one.

At this time, the 951 is going to be more of a weekend driver, but one Id like to not bankrupt the family maintaining. Maybe take it out of town once in a while for business. That sort of thing.

Of the things you mentioned, the exhaust has been upgraded to some extent. What would you go after first? I’ve been thinking Wastegate?
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:12 PM
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if only a street car the stock suspension may be adequate. but upping the HP on my 951 for DE immediately realized it needed a better suspension.

my slippery slope. and unfortunately in the process of an engine rebuild.

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-944-turbo-turbo-s/842105-my-951-de-street-build.html
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78 930 clone project car.
Old 10-08-2019, 05:24 AM
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I checked out your thread 911tracker85. Looks like you have quite a project going! I’m hoping to avoid that kind of work for the time being!
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Old 10-08-2019, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfassett View Post
Thank you! I had the belts and water pump replaced before making the drive home. That was a big one.

At this time, the 951 is going to be more of a weekend driver, but one Id like to not bankrupt the family maintaining. Maybe take it out of town once in a while for business. That sort of thing.

Of the things you mentioned, the exhaust has been upgraded to some extent. What would you go after first? Iíve been thinking Wastegate?
LOL, well Kudo's on the T-Belt and Water Pump! But the "secret" is pretty simple, more "Boost!"


And yes a "Dual Port Waste" would be a part of what you need! But also a manual Boost Controller, larger fuel injectors, a "Test Pipe (if you don't have one) and a Performance Chip. Mine was setup to run 18 psi on pump gas. I turned it down to 13 when I got it from my friend and it still tried to kill me "twice!" While I got use to it ... personally, I blame the AFM for those times. It does not limit power (AFM) (unless your pushing for over 400 hp??) But I find it to be kinda "lazy" in "normal driving," ie I don't want to go to jail!!A little power (around ) say a couple hundred rpm around 2800 rpm or so, seemed to mean "Oh all the power!" And the rear tires go up in smoke, if your making a left turn??? It's a full on power slide! But camber plates, strut bars, coil overs, etc,etc. So if your quick and no cop's ... no big deal, still annoying however. But yeah .. that was fun???


In 5th gear at under 65 mph mine was not that interested?? If an A-Hole rolls on your rear end, fast, you gotta start dropping gears! But hey in the realm of stupid crap at 90 mph ... it took off like it was lunched from an Air Craft Carrier!! Yeah I "Schooled a few tools" when it ran (non mod related, good times, good times.)

But for a "just a "chip" and "supporting mods" I like the Max chip. But sadly Russel Berry passed away. And while Lindsey Racing now sells his chips (they have for awhile) I don't see a lot of details on there site.:

https://www.lindseyracing.com/LR/Parts/944LR-CHIPS.html

Now it should be the same chip but I don't know?? As I see nothing about how much Boost on there site and mine run's 18 lbs?? But my friend said he had to go thru three chips before he was satisfied. So there is that.

So perhaps Vitess Racing, is a better chip choice these day's?? I don't know?? But mine is a 89 and has a larger Turbo then yours. I have the K26 8 vs a K 26 ?? And that smaller turbo is not necessarily a bad thing?? In the "real world" a modded smaller turbo might make for a more "civil" car ... I don't know??
Old 10-08-2019, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Looks like you have quite a project going!
Ha... that's mostly yesterday's news...

nothing compared to the full restoration of my 78 930 conversion project. just started sand blasting the tub for paint this week.

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84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 10-09-2019, 05:35 AM
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But sadly Russel Berry passed away.
had not read your post closely. that is sad to hear. I have his chip in my 951 and in the 85 911 3.2 I sold last year. the 3.2 was the only 911 he made chips for as far as I know.
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84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 10-09-2019, 05:39 AM
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had not read your post closely. that is sad to hear. I have his chip in my 951 and in the 85 911 3.2 I sold last year. the 3.2 was the only 911 he made chips for as far as I know.
Yeah I was on Renn when I heard the news. It was a few months ago, a Motorcycle Accident I believe?

Russell either sold or licensed his Process/Products to Lindsey Racing awhile I ago I think?? It should be the same product and support should still be there?? But I thought the Russell site had a few more details?? My 951 (I got from my friend as a gift, when thru all the chips of the time!) But when he got to the MAX Chip he was more than happy! Although he did say he had to have two other chips "Burned" before he got the current one, I don'[t know what that was about??

And the things I ***** about, he either never noticed or did not care?? When it ran (sigh) not mod related issues ... It started fine and idled well and over all drive-ability is good if not a bit boring??? But I was used to driving cars with MAP's and MAF's, so I notice the AFM. I hate that thing but, that aside it does work well.

I know nothing of the VR chips?? But he has lot's of happy 951 customers and he is still on the other list. And there is also the Rouge Tuning AFM Chip or MAP kit. But John aka Rouge Ant sold his tech to Lindsey Racing also. Again the product should still be the same and should still have support (bought new) but I prefer if the "original "designer" is an active member on the boards.

Rogue Tuning - Home

And a 930 clone you say aka (The Widow Maker!) Infamous for snap throttle over steer as I understand?? Pretty cool in any case and you can roll that car carousel across that lawn??
Old 10-09-2019, 09:26 AM
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Thing is everyone's car is slightly different due to wear & tear. Aftermarket chips assume one configuration of air-flow, but it's only an average and approximate assumption. With feedback, those mappings can be fine-tuned to match your particular car better. Sometimes, it takes 2-3 iterations with feedback to get it perfect. But then those mappings will not work for any other car. Here's some fuel maps for 951, how would you select which one to use???



Rogue's various "Tune" kits is best bang-for-buck. Gets rid of AFM and automatically gives you +35hp at exact same stock boost-level. MAP-based ignition-tables is best improvement for these cars ever! And you get datalogging for analysis and re-programmable maps to make changes on the spot! Note that Lindsey's version of Rogue kit is not same and has fewer features.

Performance-tuning is very dirty and hands-on. You MUST understand dyno-tuning, wideband-O2, programmable EFI systems. There are NO plug-n-play kits where you just slap on some parts and get +100bhp just like that. Well, you can, but will end up with blown engine in short order. You have to go through all steps and learn about car and know it well to upgrade without trouble.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 10-09-2019 at 09:59 AM..
Old 10-09-2019, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Thing is everyone's car is slightly different due to wear & tear. Aftermarket chips assume one configuration of air-flow, but it's only an average and approximate assumption. With feedback, those mappings can be fine-tuned to match your particular car better. Sometimes, it takes 2-3 iterations with feedback to get it perfect. But then those mappings will not work for any other car. Here's some fuel maps for 951, how would you select which one to use???



Rogue's various "Tune" kits is best bang-for-buck. Gets rid of AFM and automatically gives you +35hp at exact same stock boost-level. MAP-based ignition-tables is best improvement for these cars ever! And you get datalogging for analysis and re-programmable maps to make changes on the spot! Note that Lindsey's version of Rogue kit is not same and has fewer features.

Performance-tuning is very dirty and hands-on. You MUST understand dyno-tuning, wideband-O2, programmable EFI systems. There are NO plug-n-play kits where you just slap on some parts and get +100bhp just like that. Well, you can, but will end up with blown engine in short order. You have to go through all steps and learn about car and know it well to upgrade without trouble.
Hmm OK I know the handle! But are you the Guru Racing guy?? I'm just curious??

And yes that is the Rouge Tuning Map kit, your describing! Gets rid of the AFM sensor and adds a map sensor so the KLR/DME can read Boost! About $1500 bucks?? It's a pretty good deal! And a lot less expensive then the VR stuff!

And for those on a "budget" I would say that the "Rouge AFM" kit for $495 is the deal of the century! It keeps the AFM but adds a "Map Sensor!" So the DME/KLR can then read Boost! Pretty cool! But I was there when Josh/Rouge Ant/ Rouge Tuning was developing that kit. Lindsey took over now. And I don't know that if that is bad news?? But it gives me cause for concern??

But VR and now Lindsey both make /great stuff! No question but even still, they are basing what they provide on 25 year old, engine harness and KLR/DME's and by and large if one has "issues" that is where it is coming from?? The "new stuff," my not be the "issue" at all??

I hate those "Speed and Reference" sensors with a passion!! I know that stuff or the 25 year old engine harness is the current source of my no "spark issue??" But sigh ... I'll figure it out ... hopefully!

Cuz you know ripping it all out and starting, over with a front trigger mount and a standalone ECM, does not make a lot of sensor either??
Old 10-09-2019, 12:17 PM
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Thing is everyone's car is slightly different due to wear & tear. Aftermarket chips assume one configuration of air-flow, but it's only an average and approximate assumption. With feedback, those mappings can be fine-tuned to match your particular car better. Sometimes, it takes 2-3 iterations with feedback to get it perfect. But then those mappings will not work for any other car. Here's some fuel maps for 951, how would you select which one to use???

Well I for one have no idea what those map shows ... but off the top of my head that last one on the right, looks to be the best??
Old 10-09-2019, 12:23 PM
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Hmm OK I know the handle! But are you the Guru Racing guy?? I'm just curious??
Nah, that guy's down in SoCal somewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chip18 View Post
And for those on a "budget" I would say that the "Rouge AFM" kit for $495 is the deal of the century! It keeps the AFM but adds a "Map Sensor!" So the DME/KLR can then read Boost! Pretty cool! But I was there when Josh/Rouge Ant/ Rouge Tuning was developing that kit. Lindsey took over now. And I don't know that if that is bad news?? But it gives me cause for concern??

But VR and now Lindsey both make /great stuff! No question but even still, they are basing what they provide on 25 year old, engine harness and KLR/DME's and by and large if one has "issues" that is where it is coming from?? The "new stuff," may not be the "issue" at all??
The Lindsey version of Rogue kit is simplified. Fewer options to get you into trouble as most people don't have background to adjust all those extra options without getting into trouble.

Quote:
I hate those "Speed and Reference" sensors with a passion!! I know that stuff or the 25 year old engine harness is the current source of my no "spark issue??" But sigh ... I'll figure it out ... hopefully!

Cuz you know ripping it all out and starting, over with a front trigger mount and a standalone ECM, does not make a lot of sensor either??
Yeah, with age, crispy and cracked harness contributes A LOT to issues. A lot of people don't test and measure and just start randomly replacing perfectly-working parts with brand-new perfectly-working parts and problems continue. Very first step in troubleshooting should be to 'scope speed/ref-sensors and compare waveforms to reference specs in workshop-manual. Measure both at sensors themselves and then at DME-connector to verify wiring in-between is OK. If necessary, you can build new speed/ref-sensor harness for $10.

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Well I for one have no idea what those map shows ... but off the top of my head that last one on the right, looks to be the best??
Well, none of them actually because they need to match your particular car. Map#1 is factory USA fuel map. Map#3 is factory ROW fuel map. USA map has too much fuel and relies on O2-sensor feedback to lean out mixtures. Starts running like crap when O2-sensor begins to fail.

With age of these cars, probably best mod to start, is clean rebuild with fresh rings and seals. Then you'd have stable engine that doesn't change due to wear & tear. Frustrating trying to tune around old engine that continues to degrade and wear out.

Modern low-cost standalone EFI systems are dirt-cheap now. No reason not to yank everything out and just install new harness and new ECU. Heck, you can install Megasquirt for $500 (great illustrated guide here somewhere).


So sad about Berry. I race bikes and it's always horrible to hear such news.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 10-09-2019 at 01:21 PM..
Old 10-09-2019, 01:07 PM
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So sad about Berry. I race bikes and it's always horrible to hear such news.
I have had bikes all my life but just sold my last one and dont plan for another.... just became too uncomfortable out in traffic.

prefer the containment seat, harnesses, etc of my track car.
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84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
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