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951 Power Upgrades

I’m looking at investing in Lindsey’s 270 RWHP package, starting with the Boost Enhancer, 3 Bar fuel pressure regulator, wastegate shims and chip. But, being new to a turbo, don’t know if I already have upgrades in these points. So, yeah, dumb question... there was an engine fire several years ago, which you’ll see evidence of in the pics, but the engine has been very solid.

Based on what you see in these photos, does this all look stock relative to the parts I’ve mentioned?
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Old 10-28-2019, 06:57 PM
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Old 10-28-2019, 06:59 PM
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bosch 3 bar for 951= 0 280 160 249
3 bar regulator

what is in your photo is the stock FPR 0-280-161-015
https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/0280161015.htm?pn=0-280-161-015-INT

the other parts you mentioned are not shown in your photos.

you have some homework catching up to do, get familiar with the 951 here:
Porsche 951 (944 turbo) reference list
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:59 AM
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The boost enhancer is most likely a red/blue valve that should be near the banjo bolt coming off the hard pipe in the front of the engine. It's on the hose that provides input to the cycle valve, which controls pressure to the wastegate.

No way to tell what chip you have, or whether the wastegate is shimmed without digging in and looking.

Not sure any of this is helpful to you. Lindsey Racing might have some pix that help.
Old 10-29-2019, 05:15 PM
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Thanks for the input. Clearly I have some digging in to do. Rather assuming it’s all stock down below.

Anyone put on the cat-less 3” Lindsey exhaust. Wondering if it’s too loud for a regular driver?
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Old 10-29-2019, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Anyone put on the cat-less 3” Lindsey exhaust. Wondering if it’s too loud for a regular driver?
I did a few LR upgrades when building my 951 DE/street car. 3bar FPR, chip (RIP Russel Berry), 3" cat delete exhaust, dual port WG and manual boost controller set to near 15lb max, upgraded IC and front valance air intake. maybe some other stuff, cant recall. and a LOT of suspension upgrades. the CF look is a wrap.

the LR 3" cat delete exhaust has a single magnaflow rear muffler. great sound but not too loud, may be in part due to it being a turbo.

initially did the engine work and immediately learned on the track it needed a suspension upgrade.

good luck with your build.





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86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 10-30-2019, 06:44 AM
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BTW -- looking at your pix -- you don't have the Lindsey "boost enhancer". The line from the banjo bolt on the hard pipe goes right to the metal pipe that takes boost input to the cycle valve.
Old 10-30-2019, 11:04 AM
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Dual port waste gate, usually means a MBC?? And by passing the cycling valve I do believe???

My engine mod's are very similar to 911Tracker's, cept no 3 inch exhaust (yet) but a 2.5 cat by pass pipe and it's based around hmm ... I'm gonna say the "original" MaxBerry 951 chip. My chip came from him! And I'd say based solely on it's ability to roast the tires from dead a stop without abusing the clutch! And it's ability to launch like a fighter aircraft on a 3 to 4 downshift at 80> It has to be putting down similar numbers to "that turbo swap???

Oh yea an 89 Turbo so the KKK 26 8. But it's tuned to run 18 psi on pump gas 91 octane (West Coast) and 23 psi on Race Gas. And the rev limit was raised to 7000. And it still has the AFM on it. It did what he said it would at the time. But it did take two other attempts to get a right from what I understand from the original owner.

But the Lindsey/Max chips??? Should be the same?? But going by there description ... they don't seem to be??? But the same seems to have happened with Rough Tuning also when Lindsey took over. Fewer options, and again ... I don't know what the deal is there either??

At any rate, I'm sure the Lindsey kit ... will deliver what they claim. And the 3 inch exhaust upgrade is always a winner! And hey a new turbo couldn't hurt either?? But if I go thru the hassle of getting that turbo out of there. I'd expect bigger gains myself.

I guess the waste gate shim's and the "Boost Enhancer" limit boost to 16 psi and keeps the cycling valve active so the KLR can still Boost under Knock?? Cuz as far as I know "my" 951 won't pull boost under any conditions, well short of blowing off that throttle body to inter cooler hose! Yeah that was not fun!!!
Old 10-30-2019, 01:58 PM
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Hmm, you would happen to know the spring/rate and free length of that ... helper spring and main spring combo?? And how does your car ride and handle "unexpected" bumps, in the road???
Old 10-30-2019, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Dual port waste gate, usually means a MBC?? And by passing the cycling valve I do believe???
correct, I did the ventuir delete.

Quote:
blowing off that throttle body to inter cooler hose! Yeah that was not fun!!!
at first left boost at stock, but as I started raising the boost level had hoses pop loose twice. first the hose coming off the turbo, second time a different one.

Quote:
you would happen to know the spring/rate and free length of that ... helper spring and main spring combo?? And how does your car ride and handle "unexpected" bumps, in the road???
I dont recall now. the springs were rated in N/M. what makes the most difference is how the shocks are set. they have a single knob that controls both compression and rebound.

if they are set to the firmer end of the range it is harsh hitting bumps. on the occasion I drive it on the street I turn the shocks all the way down to soft. at that the springs are firm but hitting bumps is not too harsh, but also depends on which wheels I have on. INTRAX will make the spring rates to what you want, I had them send me a set that was for track / street.

and I added the M030 F/R sway bars too. and the wheels on the pic are my street tires on the original 16" wheels. I run as set of 17" kinesis 8/9 and Nitto NT01s on the track. with the street wheels / tires the car is even less harsh.

on the street or on the track the current suspension works great. let another 951 guy drive it on the track and he commented how much he liked the suspension.
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78 930 clone project car.
Old 10-31-2019, 06:19 AM
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Thanks for the feed back. And one knob does rebound and compression?? That's pretty cool! On my 951 I have Koni yellows double adjustable with separate adjustments and I don't track the car ... uh when it ran.

And I don't touch either knob for fear of screwing the balance up. So you know pure over kill as it were for the street but they look cool!

I did note the two springs and most likely the short flat spring is a helper spring?? As such it carries no real load but it does keep the main spring in it's pocket at the top of the shock, if the suspension becomes unloaded. And those can be added to any coil over set up.

But dual spring setup's always catch my eye!! And I have not screwed around with my springs on my 944's. I just added to the front Weltmister, lowering springs on the coil over setup, either 220 or 250 inch pound springs.

The rears are Aluminum Inverted Koni Racing Shocks with a 2 and a 1/4 inch coil over spring. And those guy's do make for a ... firmer ride.

In your photo I also note, replacement bushings for the rear trailing arms?? And the rear bushings for the rear of the control arm. I'm not sure where those poly bushings go??

And since I asked ... what are the black parts on the right at the top??? And what are the two packages of parts closest to the strut bar?? And why is half the strut bar mount ... missing on the passenger side tower, I have never seen that done>> So what's up with that???
Old 11-02-2019, 02:31 PM
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I know some dual adjustable shocks have separate compression and rebound settings. for full race cars I suspect this is preferred as it allows more flexibility in chassis setup. so far I am totally happy with my setup.

the packages are various mono ball and polybronze bushings for the front and rear suspension. eventually I did not install all of them. as an example I had installed delrin nylon bushings on the front and they initially squeaked a bit but by the time I was diving into the full upgrade they had stopped making noise, so left them.

and I have no idea why that strut bar is made that way.

here is the link to my build thread. the suspension upgrades happen after the initial build. the installation of these parts starts middle of page 3.
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78 930 clone project car.
Old 11-03-2019, 06:31 AM
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Curious to take a look at your thread, Bob. You mind putting up the link?
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:33 AM
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https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-944-turbo-turbo-s/842105-my-951-de-street-build.html

sorry I forgot to post this link. that is happening more and more often as I get older and older....
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78 930 clone project car.
Old 11-04-2019, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by 911tracker85 View Post
https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-944-turbo-turbo-s/842105-my-951-de-street-build.html

sorry I forgot to post this link. that is happening more and more often as I get older and older....
LOL ... yeah these day's I can well relate to forgetting stuff???

Thanks for the link, I tried to find it but you have a lot of threads! And I got distracted with the 930 4 speed saga! And that said did you ever get it resolved to your satisfaction??? And rest assured your not the only one that buy's stuff and put's on a shelf till you know later?? No inspection needed cuz I just bought it ... so it should be good???

And yeah separate knobs for rebound and compression does give one more "flexibility??" But you know in the "Real World" who does that??? Cuz in the "Real World" it just gives one the flexibility to mess something up?? And without good "data acquisition" and lot's of time ie a skid pad or lap times. You don't really know if you've made the car "better" or just "different???"

And discovering that you've dialed in more "over steer" in the canyon's at speed, is not something I care to experience???

On the street you want a more complaint, supple suspension, that sucks up (unexpected bumps??) And not bounce off them?? Which can cuz ...uh unexpected change of direction??? IE an impact on one corner, transfers the impact to the other corner and you find your intend line kinda changed??? Not really good in the dry and most likely deadly in the wet??

I've not gone uh full kill with my 944 or 951 ... but my little Blue 92 Tercel?? It's a canyon monster! I mastered a couple of concepts with that one! Cuz you can control
body roll with stiffer bigger sway bars (which don't have much impact on ride quality.) Or you can control body roll with springs and shocks ( which will impact ride quality) as in uh none!?? If you take it ... too far??

I decided if one is good ...both are gooder! LOL ... 2000lb car and 450 inch lbs springs and big sway bars. And it corners flat! It is a counter steering monsters ... FWD and all I can slide that puppy side ways at speed and at will!!! Good times, good times! But if you go nut's as it were?? There is a price to be paid?? And if it's not cornering ...it kinda well sucks to ride?? Cuz it rides like a dump truck!

And it does not take well to unexpected hard bumps at speed?? So yeah ... still and my point here ... is the spring setup on your Intrax, looks like a dual spring setup and I guess it's not?? The flat springs are just designed to keep the springs in place under no load, so the top of the spring, don't move in the spring pocket??

But on the other list, I have seen dual coil spring set up's. And with such, a short stiff main spring that controls roll and adding a short softer, Asst Spring with a softer rate would let one have a civil ride (supple) and run a super stiff on the street, uh safely!

I have seen it done on track cars. But no one seems to have much info on length or spring rate??? So you know ... I guess I'll have to figure it out myself??

Cuz my little Terk ... corners flat and does not dive under braking and I'll not give that up! But hey if adding a softer spring will make it more predictable and more tolerant of bumps ... I'm down with that! And then I can transfer that to my 944's.
Old 11-04-2019, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
And I got distracted with the 930 4 speed saga! And that said did you ever get it resolved to your satisfaction???
nope, out $4000. by the time I talked to Sara, Todd's wife who is now running the business, she was not receptive to a refund from what is now a couple years ago. but I did get a rebuilt, shortened bell housing 930 4sp recently. guy remove if from his 930 as he did a G50 conversion. if I had that other gearbox rebuilt and shortened, also planned to have 2nd and 3rd gears changes and add LSD. but at this point in this project I plan to just initially install this gearbox and somewhere in the future maybe pull it and have those things done.

Quote:
your not the only one that buy's stuff and put's on a shelf till you know later
that was the main intent of my thread about that. trust but verify..... from my discussion with Sara she is really trying to bring the business back. but she has a long way to go to get past the history of bad transactions such as I had.

now I recently bought a 951 engine, mainly for a good, clean bore block to rebuild my engine. when I opened it up it has some cyl souring. this guy will swap that out, but wants to open up another motor to be sure before I go get it. good guy and I expected him to make it right.


Quote:
is the spring setup on your Intrax, looks like a dual spring setup and I guess it's not?? The flat springs are just designed to keep the springs in place under no load
yea that is what they seem to be. when unloaded on the lift they really do not put up much resistance. the car immediately settles to the main springs.

ironically I am contemplating a torsion bar / coil over setup on my 930. the coil overs are intended to be helper spring. ideally I hope to find a usable set of progressive coils. but have some time before I get to that.
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87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 11-05-2019, 08:03 AM
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nope, out $4000. by the time I talked to Sara, Todd's wife who is now running the business, she was not receptive to a refund from what is now a couple years ago. but I did get a rebuilt, shortened bell housing 930 4sp recently. guy remove if from his 930 as he did a G50 conversion. if I had that other gearbox rebuilt and shortened, also planned to have 2nd and 3rd gears changes and add LSD. but at this point in this project I plan to just initially install this gearbox and somewhere in the future maybe pull it and have those things done.
Well that "still sucks then!" But I suppose "Crap Happens." I got burned on my second JDM engine! But I'm pretty sure the shop that did that install ... "F'd" that motor up!! They could not figure out how to change it from no, return line to a return line and couldn't do the DIS to Distributor bit???

So I had to do that (also) after paying them a few grand! But I did not have the time to do it. And then they also Jacked up the T-Belt job??? And I know funny Japanese Engines are for the most part unknown here?? But trust me an "Idiot" can do a T-Belt job on a DOHC 5efe or SOHC 3ee, engine!!! The term, dirt freaking simple comes to mind ... and they stiff "F'd it up!!! I only found it out because the car ran worst after the swap then it did before the motor swap???? So I figured I would double check there work after the fact??? So you know live and learn.

But that motor was a JDM import and I have no idea if it was sound before I got it??? But not having the T-Belt properly secured ... could not have done it any good on the 15 mile trip to home???

Hopefully the my other JDM import is sound?? I don't know as I bought that one uh 15 years ago??? And it went into storage. For uh ... later.


But why the 4 speed anyway??? As I understand, at the time that is what Porsche used because the then 5 speed's could not stand up to the power??? Just getting whatever used newer 5 speed , fits and putting it in your clone, won't work??? It's not that simple???

Quote:
Originally Posted by 911tracker85 View Post
that was the main intent of my thread about that. trust but verify..... from my discussion with Sara she is really trying to bring the business back. but she has a long way to go to get past the history of bad transactions such as I had.

now I recently bought a 951 engine, mainly for a good, clean bore block to rebuild my engine. when I opened it up it has some cyl souring. this guy will swap that out, but wants to open up another motor to be sure before I go get it. good guy and I expected him to make it right.
Well yes crap happens ... but hey not my money ... so you know ... you could always ask for a discount on the block you have and go for "Steel Liners in a bigger bore motor!" And you know ... new pistons and new rod's, ring's, machine work etc, etc ... just a thought.
Old 11-05-2019, 03:07 PM
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Hm, I had to break this up as it was getting to long to post?? So moving on:

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Originally Posted by 911tracker85 View Post
yea that is what they seem to be. when unloaded on the lift they really do not put up much resistance. the car immediately settles to the main springs.

ironically I am contemplating a torsion bar / coil over setup on my 930. the coil overs are intended to be helper spring. ideally I hope to find a usable set of progressive coils. but have some time before I get to that.
If they unload on the lift?? Then yeah they are "just" helper springs and most likely very soft at that??? But mostly on the road they do what they are suppose to which is to keep the top of the spring from moving around in the shock pocket under light load and they have "zero" impact on ride quality. The main spring rate controls all.

I don't do 911's to rich for my blood. But as I under ... that is where the 944/951 rear end came from! And you know .... "ASSUMING" that as fact ... my input follows.

The stock ...T-Bar set up's are only helper spring's and "IF" you told Leda ... "I am keeping the stock Torsion Bar's in place??" With your Intrax Coil Over's??? They would have made an adjustment, in the "Spring Rate" to account for the T-Bar's still being there? So the current rear spring's would be softer than they otherwise would be??

So with the 930 clone ... it would be the same detail. If your gonna remove the rear T-Bar's ... you'd need to tell them that! Other wise the spring's they would recommend would be to soft?? And without the T-Bar's in place you would have to set or you know can set the ride height with the coil over set's, spring set.

Personnel it struck me as a lot of unnecessary hassle on a street car?? I got to fool around with T Bar's on Toyota Mini Truck. I swamped the stock T Bar's out for some with a higher spring rate! They ran from the middle of the chassis to the front and indexing and install was dirt simple ... but getting the ride height right ... not so much???

And to adjust height all you needed was a wrench, and you could drop it low ... uh too low apparently?? As in you can't clear a speed bump without dragging the frame??? So you know back in the garage you go and we'll try again!

But the horizontal T-Bar's in the Porsche Car's not so simple??? Your either all in or all out! You use the plate thingies to drop them just enough for a Coil Over and T-Bar set Up. Or if you remove them completely?? It's the proper coil over spring set up and adjust the seat height to get the height right! And yep it can be done but how much time is worth the effort???

I had talked to an actual, Porsche Mechanic, that had his own shop up here, in Dayton NV! Unfortunately he is gone our my 951 would have gone to him uh a few "years" ago!

At any rate he bought a 944 for a good price and some tool had done something with the T-Bar's?? the guy had just most likely taken the T'Bar's out completely?? Or put in whatever and got the index wrong??? At any rate the rear end was too low and the car was basically un-drive able?? So he got it cheap! And he had pretty much everything he needed to get it sorted ... save for time!

I suggested since the car was already F'd up just get a set of coil overs for the rear and go for from there.

I don't know what he did with that car and he closed up shop here. Not a lot of Porsche's out here.

Porsche kept the T-Bar's in there Cup car's ... so if one figures's they know more then the factory does??? Good luck with that.

And "progress rate spring's" ?? Well I don't know 911's but for 944/951's ... good luck with that! The 968 cup car's did did use progressive rate spring's and they were available on Lindsey for a time but they longer seem to have them???

And in theory "progressive rate" spring's can give you the best of both world's they can be supple enough to soak up bumps and give suspension compliance and still stiff enough to control roll! Which would be a good thing???

But it's still a balancing act and you end up in corner with a car that act's one way at first (with the soft part of the spring) and then changes when it hit's the stiffer rate???

It was to much for me so with my Tercel, I just said screw it and went all in with 450 inch pound linear rate spring's ie you know what you got!! But yeah, it truly rides like hell! But you know it does not lean and corners dead flat. But it is a one "Trick Pony" and driving it from Dayton NV to San Jose Ca over Hwy 80 and trying to use the pot filled hill slow lane to stay off LE Radar ... you will uh prey for death!!!

But hey and back on point. With a Coil Over setup, you can chose your spring rate!! You just need to figure out the right combo of "softer" spring with the main spring for a "Dual Spring Rate" setup and there you go and there you go!!

That's my "theory" anyway.
Old 11-05-2019, 05:04 PM
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first I feel we need to apologize to cfassett for hijacking his thread. hope our banter give him some ideas.....

why the 4sp? this car was an SC converted to a 930 ... partially. it had a 915 in it when I got it. and the 3.3 turbo motor rebuilt and modified. was told it should have been good for 400hp/tq. sold that 915 and it was in bad shape. burned gears and other stuff, and clearly the PO never tracked the car. guy who rebuilt is was surprised it had not blown apart.

everything I have read says a 915 is too weak above 300hp/tq. and since this is a SC converted to a 930, you have to use a short bell housing 4sp gearbox, only made in 76-77 (or was it 75-76?). Porsche went to a different clutch pack that was 'thicker' so the bell housing got a few inches longer after that. so does not fit in an SC tub without a LOT of major mods/welding. I have read threads where people put a lot of work and upgrades into a 915 to take more power. but decided to go with a known solution. the 930 4sp was built to take the 700+ hp of the 935. but most people think that gearbox is a bit clunky when shifting and the stock gears are wide and tall. that is why I would like to eventually have it rebuilt and pull in 2nd and 3rd.

this gearbox had been a long BH but was rebuild and shortened for the PO's needs.

here is the link to my 930 thread if interested.
https://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/847975-930-clone-restore-if-you-had-do-all-over.html

Quote:
you could always ask for a discount on the block you have and go for "Steel Liners in a bigger bore motor!" And you know ... new pistons and new rod's, ring's, machine work etc, etc ... just a thought.
I think you have changed subjects to my 951 engine. LAD does not deal in 944s I was told.

and sending out my block for a full bore/refit was estimated in the $3-4K range. trying to keep the 951 on a budget and blow all my money on the 930. so plan it is to get a good block and rebuild.

the INTRAX kit eliminates the 951s rear Tbars. from reading the 944 chassis can handle this, but everyone warns about doing this on a 911 tub. it is a curiosity why Porsche did the Tbar on the rear of the 944. but that platform started with the 924 so probably a cost issue.

911 tub just not designed to carry all the weight on the shock towers. so for the 930 I plan to keep Tbars and augment with light coil overs. mainly because they look cool and the revalved Bilstein rear shocks have coil perches, and I got a set of RS reinforce front struts what also accommodate coils.

I am trying to build the 930 to be a track beast and weight less than 2500lb wet. even though it will not see a lot of track time while I own it. so trying to compromise just a bit on the suspension so not too harsh on the street. the Bilsteins were revalved for a 911 of about 2500lb and for the track, and not adjustable.

well back to finishing the work on a customer's 944. then use most of my time working on the 930 tub until it can be primered. will be dragging an 87 924S in next to pull the engine and replace the back auto flex plate. and gut it to the metal and do whatever is needed for the suspension/brakes to make it track worthy. got it for $500 so also thinking about using for Lemons racing. should make a great starter track car for a novice. heck I may even beat it on the track a couple times, you know what they say about driving a slow car fast. and with such a small investment may get a little more brave with it...
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84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
87 924S resurrect and gut and another track car...
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 11-06-2019, 07:29 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 3,587
bob/tracker - my machinist here in Nashville quoted a little under $1k to dry-sleeve/bore/hone a 944 block to your desired size, parts and labor, also including decking the block to make everything flat again...FWIW.
Old 11-06-2019, 10:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
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