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911tracker85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Park Hills, KY
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my 951 DE/street build

I have been lurking and occasionally dropping pics and comments in other's threads.

so thought I should just start my own thread.

first up, the boring background story.

I have had the 85 911 Targa for almost 25 yrs. morphed into a DE/street, and kept sliding down that slope towards what could become a non-streetable track car. not really what I wanted.

so two years ago, after coming to rest after a 720 spin in turn 1 of MidOhio slightly against a tire wall, decided to retire it and build another track car. the 911 is just in too good a cosmetic and mechanical condition to stuff, or blow up, or continue past the point of no return on track upgrades. they say you should not take a car to the track you cannot afford to leave there.

got a 928 to become the semi-DD once the 911 became too harsh for frequent street driving. when I decided to retire the 911 and get something else, started pondering my options.

that is when I found a non-running 87 944S for my Bro-in-law. once I got it running and drove some, got me thinking about a 944 turbo.

found this project car with a rebuilt long block/turbo in the engine bay, and every thing else in boxes. father/son both had 944 street turbos, picked up this project with a blown engine. got a rebuilt motor, got it, the clutch, and exhaust/turbo in the engine bay, and lost enthusiasm.

at first a little intimidated as I had never torn down or worked on a 951.

so finally started sorting out all the parts, reading WSM and PET and PP threads.

little by little got it together, turned the key and it fired on the second try.

after some more work, finally took for it's first short drive. puttered around town 20-30 mph getting the license plate. but on the way back to the shop, gave some gas and it DIED.

at first thought something must have pulled loose, or broke. but had put a LOT of new parts in there. initial check showed no spark.

over the next two weeks, learned more about DME/KLR wiring harness, replace/test speed/reference sensors (even using O scope), etc. than I had intended.

finally found my test light, and determined the NEW COIL had failed. threw in the old one and voila.

at that point, started driving to put on some break-in miles before my first track event. the PO told me they had the clutch 'rebuilt'. not sure what that meant, but after about 400 mi, started hearing noise when pushing in the clutch and some shudder.

so, resigned myself it would not make it to the track in 2014, ordered a SPEC III hybrid clutch and alum pressure plate. and decided to step back and focus on some house projects in the fall and 'get ready for winter' stuff.

since this is a belated start to this tread, will try to summarize what I have done.

after sorting the old parts, decided anything questionable along with hoses, vacc ,etc would get replaced.

ordered a lot of stuff from Lindsey Racing. they have provided great support.

all new silicone vac lines, venturi delete, cycle valve delete, new blow off valve, new turbo elec water pump and LR turbo oil filter, coolant lines, fuel lines (sent injectors out for clean/test), pump/filter, 3bar FPR, MAXHPKIT chips, plugs/wires/ dist, rotor, new O2 and also a wideband O2/AFR guage, new dual port waste gate and manual boost controller, full 3" exhaust, rebuilt brakes and HAWK Blue pads, new MC, adjustable rear brake bias valve, new clutch master, AO catch tank, billet radiator, 3X LR front oil cooler.

and along the way, clean, paint, polish, etc etc.

now waiting for my stage I inter-cooler to arrive to install during the clutch job.

here are some pics from along the way.

what I got



current state, but with air filter box top on.



LR 3X oil cooler




dual port WG and two piece exhaust crossover pipe.





rebuild/repainted calipers


LR 3" exhaust and WG


painted cam cover in place.


LR high capacity billet radiator


better pic of engine bay.

__________________
Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.

Last edited by 911tracker85; 12-09-2014 at 12:31 PM..
Old 12-09-2014, 12:23 PM
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had to post and start a second page.

originally, I had thought I would try to find a 951 project that I could gut down to a track car. but this one was in just too good a cosmetic condition to do that. so decided to do another streetable DE car.

plan to rebuild the AC. so will be selling my 928. think the shocks/springs are stock 951. rides pretty well even with the 17" and Nitto NT01s. but have a set of M030 front/rear sway bars laying on the shelf to install. dont think I'll do any more suspension upgrades until after my first DE track season. so only time will tell if it becomes too harsh on the street as the 911 did.

a couple pics from PO.

interior. the dash only has a couple very small cracks. carpet overall good. car has been repainted but appears to have been taken care of. the sunroof is all blistered, and a few minor spots on the hood and top of fenders. thinking I'll have the hood and sunroof wrapped in a carbon fiber look.

also thinking about putting some vents in the hood to let out heat. have seen a few folks do that, but no specific plan yet.

well, this is a start. will be posting more as I do the clutch and sway bars.






I have installed a bolt in roll bar, to go with the alum racing seats. apparently this car had been used for DE.

3" front brake cooling ducts.


__________________
Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 12-09-2014, 12:47 PM
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Nice post and lots of goodies. I'm in a slightly similar place. Motor going is this mouth.
I will update soon.

Restart of a 2+ year old restoration
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Motor going is this mouth.
I want to see pics of that.

got started on the clutch replacement this week. got all the exhaust/WG off, disc the rear axles, fuel filter, and ready to drop the trans next.

need to take some pics of the tranny area before I drop it. but for now here is one I took with the exhaust, crossover pipe, and starter removed. glad I had LR split my crossover pipe when putting it together, saves pulling the intake to remove the downpipe.

__________________
Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 01-01-2015, 07:31 AM
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forgot. just pulled the IC and sent to LR for a stage I upgrade, along with their stage V header panel with added duct to IC.

pics to follow.
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Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 01-01-2015, 07:35 AM
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In the Fires of Hell.....
 
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So how much power are planning to put down? The reason I am asking is that you are talking about putting in a SPEC Stage III pressure plate, which is going to be STIFF as hell. You might even cause cracking in the firewall at the clutch pedal due to this.

The stock clutch can handle I think up to 300 or 350 HP, and is much more forgiving. Get the 930 clutch disc for more meat.

With your lightweight flywheel it's not going to be great for street use.

Also, it looks like you have stock Boge struts. My experience with those is that they are going to be too soft for the track, even with M030 sways. I would be putting suspension upgrade on the top of your list if this is to be a serious track day car.

Great work on the engine
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NASA/PCA Instructor
'88 951S - with LBE, Guru chips, 3Bar FPR, 1.3mm shimmed WG, 3120 lbs, 256 RWHP, 15 psig boost
1987 924S 944 SPEC racecar - '88 pistons/DME, short 5th
1987 944S - Restored salvage title, ready to live again

Last edited by kdjones2000; 01-01-2015 at 01:55 PM..
Old 01-01-2015, 01:32 PM
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based on the upgrades, I am expecting around 300 hp/torque at 15lb boost.

I debated on the clutch and flywheel with LR. all still in their packaging so may want to revisit with them before I open and start installing.

speaking of effort, I don't recall what heavy duty clutch installed on my 78 930 clone, but definitely takes some effort. was told that modified motor had dyno'ed over 400 hp, so probably needs it.

yea, suspension upgrades are part of the plan. been working on this off and on for over a year, so wanted to get it done and decide on more suspension upgrades after driving. car has bilsteins on the rear. will probably do a full set of coilovers on it next winter.

well... off to the shop to drop the transaxle today. not sure how far I will get on removing the clutch.
__________________
Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 01-02-2015, 06:44 AM
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In the Fires of Hell.....
 
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I have driven a Stage II clutch before, and those are the reasons for my comments.

There have been people who have experienced premature wearout of the thrust bearing due to a heavy clutch pressure plate as well.

You shouldn't have to ask everyone on Pelican for this feedback - it's already available both here and on the "other forum" if you search...

Good luck with your build.
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NASA/PCA Instructor
'88 951S - with LBE, Guru chips, 3Bar FPR, 1.3mm shimmed WG, 3120 lbs, 256 RWHP, 15 psig boost
1987 924S 944 SPEC racecar - '88 pistons/DME, short 5th
1987 944S - Restored salvage title, ready to live again
Old 01-03-2015, 06:05 AM
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excellent day yesterday.

got the tranny out, disc the TT, rotate, and got it pulled back. had to persuade the TT to rotate with a pry bar, to get the flanges to rotate inside the trans tunnel.

I disc and dropped with the trans support cross member. think I would just remove the support bolts and drop the tranny, and then pull the cross member separate next time. had to remove the fuel pump cover and wiggle a bit as I lowered to get out together.

so today hope to pull the clutch.

before I install the new SPEC stage III 'hybrid' and alum flywheel, hope to get some feedback. all still in packaging and expect the vendor will accept a return for a less heavy version if I want.

SPEC stage III 'hybrid' and alum flywheel???

here are a few pics. and in particular, curious about my shift linkage. it definitely feels like a short shift kit compared to the 87 944S, and I can see the linkages in a second set of holes to do this. did someone just drill out the stock parts or is this some kind of kit. I do like the way it shifted so no interest in replacing.














__________________
Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 01-03-2015, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
You shouldn't have to ask everyone on Pelican for this feedback - it's already available both here and on the "other forum" if you search...
well I did some searching. but as in the "I Robot" movie, you must ask the right question.

did not find what I wanted. did see one post about the higher SPEC stage clutches being a bit hard for street driving.
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Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 01-03-2015, 06:28 AM
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In the Fires of Hell.....
 
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You would still have to remove that support bracket anyway if you drop the transaxle without it, in order to get the TT pulled back far enough. Makes more sense to just remove it as a unit, IMO.
__________________
NASA/PCA Instructor
'88 951S - with LBE, Guru chips, 3Bar FPR, 1.3mm shimmed WG, 3120 lbs, 256 RWHP, 15 psig boost
1987 924S 944 SPEC racecar - '88 pistons/DME, short 5th
1987 944S - Restored salvage title, ready to live again
Old 01-03-2015, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Makes more sense to just remove it as a unit
yep, that is what I thought. but with the cross-member attached, makes is more of a challenge as you lower the trans and work the cross-member around stuff. I ended up pulling the fuel pump cover as the cross-member got caught on the edge. next time will drop tranny separate then pull cross-member.

more progress but a couple minor challenges.

got the bell housing, PP, and flywheel off.

after some attempts, finally pulled the heater control valve off the connection to the block to get access to the top bell housing bolt and the grounds.

then when removing the PP, stripped one cheese head bolt. well.... PO had put in all 6 point bolts but one 12 point and I did not notice. tried to use a 12 point but too much damage to the splines and it stripped too. drilled it out easy enough.

when I pulled the PP, the clutch disc came out in pieces. will post pic next time.

all the rivets that hold the two sides of the clutch disc to the center metal disc were gone. need to look at the debris below again to see if I find any of them.

well... back to work tomorrow so will be taking a break until next weekend. from feedback, really struggling with whether to install the stage III kit. will figure that out tomorrow talking to LR.

then proceed with the pilot bearing and RMS, and cleaning everything.



__________________
Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 01-04-2015, 06:48 AM
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cleaned up my mess and reorganized my tools for starting the reassembly.

I did find some rivets. so what the heck happened? looks like the rivets were loose and could wiggle enough that the rivet edges got worn off.

will proceed with the SPEC stage III hybrid and alum flywheel.

got the RMS and pilot bearing out. now time to clean .. clean ... clean.


__________________
Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 01-15-2015, 05:16 AM
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got the RMS in and did a lot of cleaning.

so this weekend get to start putting in the new, shiny bits.



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Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 01-21-2015, 12:50 PM
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In the Fires of Hell.....
 
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Make sure that seal is fully seated, or you will doing it again very soon.

(Don't) ask me how I know...
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NASA/PCA Instructor
'88 951S - with LBE, Guru chips, 3Bar FPR, 1.3mm shimmed WG, 3120 lbs, 256 RWHP, 15 psig boost
1987 924S 944 SPEC racecar - '88 pistons/DME, short 5th
1987 944S - Restored salvage title, ready to live again
Old 01-21-2015, 02:15 PM
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kdjones2000
I was using a 4" PVC cap and got it about 1 mm inside the flange on the block. if you look real close, you can see that in the previous pic.

also LR told me the 'trick' to shorten the spring by 10mm to tighten up the seal around the crank end.

since you implied a foopah of some sort, I'll show mine.

I have a collection of short PVC sections for such issues. thought I would use one to seat the pilot bearing. idea was to avoid hitting the inner part with a hammer.

as I was tapping on the PVC, it shifted and dented the bearing seal a little.

got a new one to put in the normal way, tapping with small plastic hammer.

I have learned sooo much from all my mistakes. really try to not repeat any. good so far.


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Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 01-22-2015, 04:57 AM
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In the Fires of Hell.....
 
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I took a good look at your picture of the RMS, and it looked to me that it might not be fully seated. Hard to tell in that picture.

It sounds like you are doing the right things however, so that's good news.

My experience with these things, after doing 5 or more, is that the brown Kaco seal that is present in the Victor Reinz lower conversion kit is harder to put in successfully. I think I am something like 1 for 4 with Kaco. The black Elring seal has worked well for me.

I use something close to what you used, only in my case I use a second RMS seal along with a threaded 4" PVC cap to drive it in.

I just don't want you to have to do it all over again...

I use a piece of wood over the bearing to drive that into the crankshaft. Many ways to solve that problem.
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NASA/PCA Instructor
'88 951S - with LBE, Guru chips, 3Bar FPR, 1.3mm shimmed WG, 3120 lbs, 256 RWHP, 15 psig boost
1987 924S 944 SPEC racecar - '88 pistons/DME, short 5th
1987 944S - Restored salvage title, ready to live again

Last edited by kdjones2000; 01-22-2015 at 08:34 AM..
Old 01-22-2015, 08:32 AM
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the one I pulled out was just to the flange and leaking very slightly. I think what I used is the 4" threaded PVC cap you reference. exactly the diameter of the RMS, and the little edge seats it just past the edge of the block, then the threads on the cap stop it from going farther in. since it is a good match, did not think of using the old RMS as well. In the past I would use old wheel bearing races to help seat new ones. the friend from whom I rent the garage has a full range of such tools I can borrow, but they are at a different location. did not expect much trouble with the RMS or pilot bearing, so used my old standby.

and per LR's recommendation I used a very light coat of locktite 5900 around the outer edge of the block, and oiled the seal lip of the RMS and the crank before I installed. with the locktite, may not be good to try to seat deeper at this point.

so how deep do you seat the RMS? first one for me, and dont want to do it on THIS car again for a long time.

and after buggering the pilot bearing, using a small, flat piece of wood was another thought. the new one will go in tomorrow before I start installing the new clutch.

in both cases trying to tap them in straight, avoid getting them in unevenly and jamming. probably more of an issue/risk with the pilot bearing than the RMS.

here is another pic of the RMS zoomed in from a slightly different angle. look close and you can see the ~1mm inset, especially at the little notch at the lower left.

thanks for the feedback.

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Bob Cox
84 928S, Ruby Red linen/brown interior - preferred DD
85 911 Targa, White Gold/brown int - retired from track.
86 944 turbo my new DE/track car.
78 930 clone project car.
Old 01-22-2015, 11:24 AM
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In the Fires of Hell.....
 
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Bob, I have done what you have here, and my experience is that you will have a small leak.

YMMV, and you might want to get another opinion on this.
__________________
NASA/PCA Instructor
'88 951S - with LBE, Guru chips, 3Bar FPR, 1.3mm shimmed WG, 3120 lbs, 256 RWHP, 15 psig boost
1987 924S 944 SPEC racecar - '88 pistons/DME, short 5th
1987 944S - Restored salvage title, ready to live again
Old 01-22-2015, 03:27 PM
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Hard to tell from the pictures but i would tap around the perimeter of the RMS again to make sure its fully seated. I cheated when i did mine and used the RMS install tool.

For the pilot bearing, stick it in the freezer over night before installing. I tapped mine in with a piece of wood over it also. If you do it with relative haste before it cools off it will be just slightly easier to get it into the crank.
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1988 Granite Green 911 3.4L
2017 Reflex Silver Mk7 GTI
Past worth mentioning - 1987 924S, 1987 944, 1988 944T with 5.7L LS1, 1997 E36 M3, 2003 E39 540i
Old 01-23-2015, 06:25 PM
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