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Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
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oi, once my suspension settled, the 295 in front rubbed bad.
the 315 in the rear were fine. car just sits too low. i could have cambered it in more, but then it would hit the coilover, so id need camber plates to get it just right. so i ended up running by a buddies shop tonight and throwing my 245s in the front, and i put the 295 in the rear to keep it at least as close to square as possible with what i have for tires. couldnt drive much today, but i was instructing mostly anyways. tomorrow will be a day of driving =D but pouring rain all weekend
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Old 03-12-2016, 11:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
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Thanks for the info. Your new turbo is significantly bigger the K26/6 and K26/8. I have seen dyno charts with slightly above 300 whp with standard K26/8 on fuel pump (with the same standalone I will be using). So after you get the right tune, you should be well above 300 whp.

My standalone will arrive during March together with new Siemens deka 630 cc injectors. My K26/6 was rebuild a week ago and I installed Bullseye billet drop in wheel that should add up to 15 - 20 whp and my hot side wheel size is increased to 54mm (from 48 mm), so almost to k26/8 size and also the housing outlet was modified accordingly. Will see how it will perform. Will bring the car to the dyno in summer. Here are couple of pictures from the turbo.







Good luck in your auto cross event. However, your car (evry 951) seems more suitable for track use

Last edited by smudo; 03-14-2016 at 10:46 AM..
Old 03-13-2016, 09:28 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #62 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
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pictures didnt show up in your post.
its making about 376 at the crank now, 321 at wheels. im pretty happy with that, and how soon it comes on.
i had some tire fitment issues even after going to 245 in the front and maxing the camber out. it got in an argument with my fender lip. not too bad but still wasnt happy. i need to not be as low as the last owner put it, but its maxed out so id need longer springs. sad day.
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Old 03-13-2016, 07:18 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smudo View Post
Thanks for the info. Your new turbo is significantly bigger the K26/6 and K26/8. I have seen dyno charts with slightly above 300 whp with standard K26/8 on fuel pump (with the same standalone I will be using). So after you get the right tune, you should be well above 300 whp.
He's already got 376bhp @ 16psi. That turbo can deliver +500bhp once he gets the tuning dialed-in. The K26/6 & K26/8 are actually larger than BW, and uses much more ancient technology, doesn't spool as quickly and isn't as efficient.

BW - EFR6258
compressor = 62/49.6mm
turbine = 58/51mm

K26/6
compressor = 66/44mm
turbine = 65/49mm

K26/8
compressor = 66/46mm
turbine = 65/55mm

SFR - PTE6262 previously installed is larger than Garrett GT3582R
compressor = 82/62mm
turbine = 72/62mm

No need for dramatic upgrades to max out a K26/8's potential. Here's one with just a chip-kit @ 18psi, getting 288whp. Shimmed stock wastegate and everything else is bone stock.



Note that @ 3500rpm, the EFR6258 has +100lb*ft and +75hp over the K26/8; that's some major muscle down low for pulling out of tight corners. You're not going to get much more than another 20-30hp out of a K26/8, no matter how many more mods you throw at it. Going to all that same effort of standalone and dyno-tuning will give you +400bhp with a modern turbo.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 03-14-2016 at 09:14 PM..
Old 03-13-2016, 10:34 PM
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Thanks, Danno, your comments are much appreciated as always. Doesn't to OP's car put actually 388 whp? 321/0.83=388, if you consider that around 17% are losses? If the spool up will be better than K26/8 then it will be really impressive and that all with just 16 psi. Hopfully OP will put some driving impressions after first event.
Old 03-14-2016, 01:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #65 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smudo View Post
Thanks, Danno, your comments are much appreciated as always. Doesn't to OP's car put actually 388 whp? 321/0.83=388, if you consider that around 17% are losses? If the spool up will be better than K26/8 then it will be really impressive and that all with just 16 psi. Hopfully OP will put some driving impressions after first event.
321 x 1.17 = ~376
this thing kicks in fast. I had more tire problems, but I can tell from my few runs that its going to be very competitive. My biggest complaint is the long gears in the 5R trans. 1st is great when I can use it, but I end up at rev limit several times, and then shifting to the very bottom of 2nd I lose power for just long enough to hurt my times. if the gears were shorter, id be in perfect shape. I try to stay in first as much as possible. but sometimes it just isn't a possibility, and then if I have to slow into a C box or something, second is a bit of a pig. these are the tallest gears ive ever felt. NO one else can stay in first the whole time and throw down competitive times.
I have the s2 trans with a bad second gear synchro, id like to put the R and P from there in the 5R, but that's a lot of work lol. it would shorten things up nicely though.

im extremely happy with the current setup.

this turbo is rated at 440-450hp max. on this motor id probably have to turn boost up more and it probably wouldn't help a ton down low I wouldn't think... who knows. I think im okay at 16 for now. I need to get the rest dialed in, and then I can come back to the "more power" issue later.
its 100 times more usable than it was. I was hitting boost within like 20 feet. it helps to slip the clutch a bit at launch to build up, and then trying to mitigate tire spin - by not spinning tires it puts more load on and builds boost pretty quick, so you can almost have boost by the time youre passing the start lights.

on another note, if I just full throttle go in a straight line, I definitely get wheel spin and go sideways in first gear, second gear, third gear. even if I have traction at high rpm in second, shift third and give it full throttle - once boost hits, which is quick, it takes off. that was with 315 in the back lol

however, I ended up with 245 in the front, and when I spun out once, the tire caught the fender and rolled the lip out. its not too bad looking, but im gonna need to get some heat on it to work it back without chipping paint =(

I already lifted it up about 1/4 inch on the coilovers but they are maxed out now. I have camber dialed in at full. I may end up needing to get longer springs. really, wheels straight, I have plenty of room. but when I turn it gets too close. I don't like how low the car is, but cant go higher. I think ill need to focus on suspension sooner than later. I wanted to run this year and get a good impression of what I need. I couldn't get a good sense of it last year with all the lag and stuff.
those one inch wider fenders seem like a good idea, then I can put the 295 back on the front... hm.
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Last edited by PDX-944; 03-14-2016 at 10:54 AM..
Old 03-14-2016, 10:50 AM
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Hi, you can either modify the fenders and/or lift the car or you need rims with different offset. I have read that many are running 255s in front without rubbing issues and there is enough space towards the inside of the wheel. I have one set of Keskin KT2 18*8,5 with ET48 on 87 and I cannot put anything wider than 225 up front (maybe 235), but if the ET number would be around 60, I could run 245 or maybe even 255 up front on a lowered car without any issues.
Old 03-14-2016, 11:33 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #67 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smudo View Post
Hi, you can either modify the fenders and/or lift the car or you need rims with different offset. I have read that many are running 255s in front without rubbing issues and there is enough space towards the inside of the wheel. I have one set of Keskin KT2 18*8,5 with ET48 on 87 and I cannot put anything wider than 225 up front (maybe 235), but if the ET number would be around 60, I could run 245 or maybe even 255 up front on a lowered car without any issues.
these are 996 MY02s. I think the issue is ride height. I should go stiffer than 400lbs a bit, and go with a 10 inch spring, then drop it down to a bit higher than now.
the rear is still stock which is silly.
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Old 03-14-2016, 11:44 AM
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Ryan, great work on the upgrade! Here's a comparison of your EFR6258@16psi vs. K26/8@18psi. The app-based dyno of the 6262 isn't accurate, so I'll use the K26/8 since everyone's familiar with that.



There's significantly more low-end torque with the EFR having wider torque-curve. The only area the K26/8 even comes close is at their torque-peaks and it's still 10% down with 2psi more boost. At all other RPMs, the EFR has a huge advantage; especially in the low-end. This is probably due to the smaller lighter turbine & compressor-wheels of the EFR.

Also in the upper-RPMs, the torque-curve doesn't fall off as quickly. Thus, max-HP is generated at 6000rpms vs. 4800rpms on the K26/8. This points to great efficiency at the higher flow-ranges.

Amazing work! What didn't the tuner like at 18-psi? Did you max-out the injectors? Still on 55# ones?
Old 03-16-2016, 02:01 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Ryan, great work on the upgrade! Here's a comparison of your EFR6258@16psi vs. K26/8@18psi. The app-based dyno of the 6262 isn't accurate, so I'll use the K26/8 since everyone's familiar with that.



There's significantly more low-end torque with the EFR having wider torque-curve. The only area the K26/8 even comes close is at their torque-peaks and it's still 10% down with 2psi more boost. At all other RPMs, the EFR has a huge advantage; especially in the low-end. This is probably due to the smaller lighter turbine & compressor-wheels of the EFR.

Also in the upper-RPMs, the torque-curve doesn't fall off as quickly. Thus, max-HP is generated at 6000rpms vs. 4800rpms on the K26/8. This points to great efficiency at the higher flow-ranges.

Amazing work! What didn't the tuner like at 18-psi? Did you max-out the injectors? Still on 55# ones?
nope im on 72# now, he said he was just going to have to do a lot more messing with ignition and fuel map at the psi. we were already at the 5 hour mark he quoted and we decided to hold off for now. he said the previous map was really wonky. its a table of values, that gradually change in all directions, to create the map. well random values in the grid were zeroed out. sporadically. like someone just clicked around and pushed delete a bunch.
im really happy with it though. the only issue is that for cold starts I have to prime it 2 or 3 times, crank, start die. repeat. repeat. for about 3 minutes before it will start. like its not getting fuel after crank. only when cold. so hes gonna take a look this weekend at that.
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Last edited by PDX-944; 03-16-2016 at 02:59 PM..
Old 03-16-2016, 02:16 PM
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Very nice results! Should feel like a big bore motor by comparison. The 8v head will generally fall off around 6500rpm but for what you want to use it for this should still be ok. I'd like to try that turbo on our 2.5 8v actually. Be a lot of fun. Heck of a lot more responsive than the GTX3582 on it now!

You can really improve your response with the S2 ring & pinion but one project at a time.

Have you had the front fenders rolled? Or perhaps go for some aftermarket wider ones? FIBERGLASS ACCESSORIES - Page 2 make some wider ones that probably have the best fit.
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:32 PM
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Yeah, Photobucket's been really flakey lately, I may move all my photos to a different host.

You put together a really nice configuration. Similar max-HP to previous turbo with a lot more low-end to squirt out of the corners. Don't see the AFR on your chart, take a look at the K26/8 one. I've found that low-end spool-time can be improved with a hotter/leaner mixture, around 13.5:1. Then richen it up as boost builds. Your tuner may be able to pick up the low-end transient response by leaning a little there.

Also the typical ignition valley around the torque-peak and max-boost.
Old 03-16-2016, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smudo View Post
Thanks, Danno, your comments are much appreciated as always. Doesn't to OP's car put actually 388 whp? 321/0.83=388, if you consider that around 17% are losses? If the spool up will be better than K26/8 then it will be really impressive and that all with just 16 psi. Hopfully OP will put some driving impressions after first event.
Yes, you're right. The math used is slightly off.
Quote:
321 x 1.17 = ~376
We actually need to divide whp by 0.83 to get crank-bhp. That's the inverse of the original equation. Due to whp being a small number than bhp, and you need to multiply it by a larger percentage to get it back to the original. Let's take a theoretical 100bhp engine with 17% drivetrain loss (I've seen stock 951s dynos with 13-17% lower whp than Porsche's claimed 217 & 247bhp).

whp = bhp - 17%
whp = (bhp*1) - (bhp*0.17)
whp = bhp*(1-0.17)
whp = bhp*0.83
bhp*0.83 = whp

100bhp * 0.83 = 83whp ;however to get back to crank-bhp
83whp * 1.17 = 97.1bhp ; multiplying by same percentage doesn't work

That's because 17% of 100hp = 17hp
but 17% of 83hp is only 14.1hp

To go from whp with 17% drivetrain loss back up to crank-bhp, we have to multiply whp by 20.5%.

83whp * 1.205 = 100bhp

Rather than memorizing ratio-pairs of down/up of 17/20.5, 15/17.6, etc. we can just re-arrange the original equation:

bhp*0.83 = whp or
whp/0.83 = bhp

So his 321.5whp is 321.5/0.83 = 387bhp at crank. Pretty darn good for 16psi with stock innards!
Old 03-16-2016, 02:54 PM
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Yay...more power for all of us then Dan! In reality it's all a bit anecdotal. Figuring out % losses based on a chassis dyno is an imperfect science. If you could run a motor on an engine dyno and then immediately onto a chassis dyno we might get close but I've always used 15% as an average. Our local Porsche club uses 32% for some reason. Not really sure why as they would be rear engine centric adn you'd think that a 911 would have less in trans losses than a front engine car.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:57 PM
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Thanks for correcting the math there. It's true also that those are estimations in any case. I would definitely consider the 944 design a higher than average loss with the TT design. I might as well round to 400
I forgot to post a video from Sundays ax. It was my second run, first run was my course walk. Choose walk is the most important part of autocross, but when you're in charge, you don't always get that luxury. So not a great run. But the third run I spun and cut the tire. Gonna have to relearn the car! And not in the rain lol

I have another thread actually about the aftermarket fenders, but at straight, they're already inset a lot. It's at turn that's the issue. They'd be ridiculously inset with wider fenders at straight when the problem is really that a previous owner wanted to look "hellaflush"

Initial tuning fouled his wideband - mine wasnt giving him anything during crank. I think he needed to turn the key, let it sit to turn on, then crank. In any case, we had no data logging of afr. I never got it connected to the ecm. I should have.

Keep in mind no one locally had ever heard of wolf3d, so I'm lucky I found one willing to go at it
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Last edited by PDX-944; 03-16-2016 at 05:30 PM..
Old 03-16-2016, 05:26 PM
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So, fitment is better, but it was wet so not 100 percent sure. im going to order up longer and slightly stiffer springs. it needs it anyways.
heres my second best run, i lost time on the last loop. i really only attended to test out fitment. i had second best time of the heat - no idea in class, i dont think anyone else in SSM was there...
gives you an idea of spool though. i didnt full throttle it at all the whole time, so you can imagine "what if?"!

https://youtu.be/OwHBbSBLWY8
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:35 PM
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My standalone will arrive during March together with new Siemens deka 630 cc injectors.
Salvis, your VEMS plug and play standalone and new 630cc injectors are ready to ship, including very well working tune
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Old 03-22-2016, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by PDX-944 View Post
So, fitment is better, but it was wet so not 100 percent sure. im going to order up longer and slightly stiffer springs. it needs it anyways.
heres my second best run, i lost time on the last loop. i really only attended to test out fitment. i had second best time of the heat - no idea in class, i dont think anyone else in SSM was there...
gives you an idea of spool though. i didnt full throttle it at all the whole time, so you can imagine "what if?"!

https://youtu.be/OwHBbSBLWY8
Nice video, but you really need to go to proper racetrack! I sometimes go to go kart race track where you drive the second gear all time except in the main straight where you can use third gear reach 90 mph - and you feel that even on such track you are using only half of the 951 potential
Old 03-22-2016, 11:34 AM
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Salvis, your VEMS plug and play standalone and new 630cc injectors are ready to ship, including very well working tune
Thanks. Will post results in another thread if I find time to dyno tune it during the summer.
Old 03-22-2016, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by smudo View Post
Nice video, but you really need to go to proper racetrack! I sometimes go to go kart race track where you drive the second gear all time except in the main straight where you can use third gear reach 90 mph - and you feel that even on such track you are using only half of the 951 potential
my biggest complaint with the 951 is the 5R trans I have. the 1st gear is SO long, and 2nd is SO far up there. most people are high in second while im still in first gear.
I also do hill climbs, none of that silly enclosed track stuff that will really test out the car. also some of the bigger AX venues. but I don't want to hit second, its too high up there
although I will hit the track later this year once at least, for free, for the first time. will be interesting.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:47 AM
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