Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > Porsche 944 Turbo and Turbo S

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 1.00 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
951S + Borg Warner EFR-6258 Project

Well, I finally bit the bullet and made an order. Quite an ordeal choosing a turbo. Racing season starts in 2 months, so i feel a bit rushed!

Previously I had a concoction of a SFR/Precision 6262 in there, which was absurdly laggy as its designed for quite a bit more HP than I was pushing (I was pushing around 400 crank).
Because I'm the registrar and timing master for the local PCA region, I mainly autocross, but I also attend several hillclimbs in a year, and will be getting free track time this year as well.
So my main goal was fast spool.
With the 6262 I was starting to get any significant spool around 4k. Absurd, except when I was able to design courses to stay in 1st gear. With the 5R trans that's not too hard to do as its got an insanely long 1st. When I was able to do that and stay at 5-7k the whole time, I was extremely competitive. But shifting 2nd would ruin that quickly because of the lag.

So by guidance from a few people, I was able to narrow it down to the BW EFR-6258, GT3071R, or GTX3071R. Any of those in single or twin scroll.
I had decided I was going to do the EFR in twin scroll, but came to find that all the twin scroll EFR of that size have internal wastegates. only a single scroll V band setup did not have the IWG.
I wouldn't mind the IWG for my purposes, but as it turns out, the actuator would either sit right in the middle of the oil drain/pedestal, or between that and the block, neither of which would work.

So, disappointed at BW for not creating a twin scroll without IWG, I was stuck between single scroll EFR, or twin scroll GT or GTX. Yes the 6258 is small, but still, I would do twin scroll if I could.
After talking with a rep at Full-Race, it seemed that yes, the GT and GTX could allow more power, but they would also spool more slowly.
Frankly, if the EFR could get me close to 400 (its rated at 425), id be perfectly happy. My goal isn't top power, so why get something that spools more slowly?
Furthermore, the EFR and GT/GTX have the same oil drain design, so the fitment would be identical.
PLUS, the EFR has internal recirculation, which surpasses the BOV I have right now, and means I don't have to recirc my system now (which I wanted to do, but would be more work). My guess is that their internal recirc would be superior to any aftermarket recirc setup anyways.

So, I placed an order for the EFR 6258, EWG, V-Band, .84A/R (again it only comes in .84 A/R with EWG, BW limited us quite a bit here)

finally also ordered a wideband so that when I take this to get it tuned they can actually do it well!

A few things left will include bigger injectors I think (i have to confirm what the previous previous previous owner put in, as the information about this car has somewhat gotten lost and incorrect over the last few owners), and i have to get rid of the dual inline fuel pressure regulator setup that someone thought was a good idea.
On the positive side, i don't have to redo the exhaust for twin scroll, just have to convert to v band.

Then, taking it in to have the Wolf3d V400 retuned correctly!

Mmmm tasty!






UPDATE:
Heres the end result!

__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club

Last edited by PDX-944; 03-11-2016 at 03:32 PM..
Old 12-30-2015, 10:20 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
so the question is, what to do on injectors? leave? go bigger?

heres my setup after I put the new turbo on:

1988 Porsche 944 Turbo S (Silver Rose)
Wolf3D V400 EMS with J&S Knocksafe (tuned for 18psi on premium fuel, tunable via laptop)
B&B Header
EFR 6258 Turbo with internal recirc
3" Stainless downpipe (ceramic coated)
4" Lindsey Racing stainless cat-back
custom oil cooler w/new lines
Custom aluminum intake piping (larger diameter)
Aluminum flywheel
Spec Stage II clutch
Tial Wastegate
55# injectors
Stock rail
Sketchy dual fuel pressure regulators run in series, that I will get rid of
__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club
Old 12-30-2015, 04:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
your average wrencher...
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bedford, PA
Posts: 1,333
Garage
Main question: what fuel? Pump gas or E85? You could probably use 80lbers for pump but I'd definitely go larger with E85. Maybe a better fuel rail to with a remote fpr (aeromotive?)
Better fuel pump too?
__________________
1986 951 Garrett turbo, Rogue Tuned.
1987 944S chipped, konis, rollbar (traded)
1979 924 total rebuild and blueprinted (sold)
1988 XJ 5in lift,long arms, 4.6 stroker, ax-15 w/ 35s
1995.5 Audi S6 Full RS2 bolt-ons, EFI tuned.
Old 12-31-2015, 01:59 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
It will be on pump. If I was hitting 350 with this current setup id be surprised at all that having to be done...
This morning I ordered new fuel lines and an adjustable fpr for the stock rail. What are the limits of the stock rail and pump?
I'm not going to be pushing that much more than I was, just earlier.
__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club
Old 12-31-2015, 03:50 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
your average wrencher...
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bedford, PA
Posts: 1,333
Garage
Just a better setup than your duel regulator setup. I honestly dont know the limits of either. But I would go for an 80lb injector, good headroom and you wont be close to maxing them out.

I'd like to see pics of your setup, sounds pretty cool.
__________________
1986 951 Garrett turbo, Rogue Tuned.
1987 944S chipped, konis, rollbar (traded)
1979 924 total rebuild and blueprinted (sold)
1988 XJ 5in lift,long arms, 4.6 stroker, ax-15 w/ 35s
1995.5 Audi S6 Full RS2 bolt-ons, EFI tuned.
Old 01-02-2016, 01:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by running_cold924 View Post
Just a better setup than your duel regulator setup. I honestly dont know the limits of either. But I would go for an 80lb injector, good headroom and you wont be close to maxing them out.

I'd like to see pics of your setup, sounds pretty cool.
id like to see pics too lol
i just got the wideband in the mail. still waiting for everything else. trying to determine the best way to mount the new boost gauge and the afr gauge. i have an idea how but its gonna take some work. trying to find just the right parts.

heres where i was at with the old turbo. its out of the car now:















Dyno run using the perfexpert app. i had the temperature set wrong so its probably a little off.
__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club
Old 01-02-2016, 02:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
your average wrencher...
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bedford, PA
Posts: 1,333
Garage
Not a bad looking dyno sheet there. About your wideband and boost gauge, heres mine with the MBC too.

that turbo looks like she was blowing some oil, may also want a catch can to help.
__________________
1986 951 Garrett turbo, Rogue Tuned.
1987 944S chipped, konis, rollbar (traded)
1979 924 total rebuild and blueprinted (sold)
1988 XJ 5in lift,long arms, 4.6 stroker, ax-15 w/ 35s
1995.5 Audi S6 Full RS2 bolt-ons, EFI tuned.
Old 01-02-2016, 05:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
Yeah it was giving me some oil grief. Which is sad because it was rebuilt in 2013.
I guess I'll see how the new turbo is about it. The current boost gauge is mounted like yours is. Ive got an idea I want to try that's more visible though without blocking my view.
__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club
Old 01-03-2016, 07:12 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
got a wild hair today and decided to see about my gauge mounting idea. theres a perfect space between the cluster and the middle vents, that wouldnt block vision, nor the vents or cluster. i just have to find a way to get them to stay there.
i also need to clean them up and work out a finish that looks decent. my temp test was black leather dye. lol. the two gauges "pods" are attached together. i could probably get some burgundy vinyl to match the dash and wrap them... hmm

turns out 52mm gauges fit perfectly in schedule 40 piping:





__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club
Old 01-03-2016, 07:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
new fuel lines got here. ordered a new aluminum fuel rail, also waiting on the turbo still. should be here soon! excited to get this show on the road!
__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club
Old 01-06-2016, 03:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
your average wrencher...
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bedford, PA
Posts: 1,333
Garage
lol the fuel rail eh? I snagged one too. looked too good to pass up.

Not a bad idea on the gauges, what brand are they?
__________________
1986 951 Garrett turbo, Rogue Tuned.
1987 944S chipped, konis, rollbar (traded)
1979 924 total rebuild and blueprinted (sold)
1988 XJ 5in lift,long arms, 4.6 stroker, ax-15 w/ 35s
1995.5 Audi S6 Full RS2 bolt-ons, EFI tuned.
Old 01-06-2016, 05:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
Wideband kit is ASPX D2, uses bosch lsu4.2

Yeah that rail was too tempting. Lol. I have a Lindsey rail but no lines sitting around here, and I can't use stock lines with that rail so it's kind of a waste unless i custom make them, and I'm not about to do that. So this rail makes more sense
__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club
Old 01-06-2016, 06:13 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
 
Now Available for Ordering:   101 Projects For Your BMW 3 Series 1982-2000  [more info]
Registered User
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,508
Garage
I have been going down this path too and discussing options with Full Race as well. Going for a larger turbo and they have ext gated twin scroll available. Quite a lot of work to change the headers into 4-2, twin X overs and new larger turbo back exhaust. Might hang onto the current turbo and try the new motor on this but am really keen on the EFR range. Keep us updated with the installation and results.
__________________
Patrick

Youtube 333pg333

86 modified 951
Old 01-07-2016, 05:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
I definitely will continue to update. I haven't had a decent build thread in years lol.
Twin scroll exhaust really wouldn't be too bad if you can weld. I have a friend who was willing to do it. Dumping dual ewg to atmosphere would be most simple even if it is louder. The cars already loud. Lol

I went with this smallest option, which didn't have a twin scroll and ewg option like some of the bigger ones do, because I'm looking for spool time. And 400-425hp is plenty for AX, and the car was already competitive at hillclimbs so it should be even better now.
I'm excited to see how this turns out. Ending up spending almost as much on this stuff as I did on the car.. lol

Full race seemed legit, but the price at Fab9 Tuning was significantly lower for the turbo, and the customer service has been very good.
I got home at like 9pm last night and had received the turbo in the mail, finding that a nipple on the boost control solenoid had broken during shipping. So i emailed them at about 9:10 pm and they responded about 10 minutes later and were sending a replacement part. They've been great.
__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club

Last edited by PDX-944; 01-07-2016 at 06:59 PM..
Old 01-07-2016, 06:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,508
Garage
Wow, that's outstanding service! We have nothing like that down here.

I went quite a long way down the research path in regards to which turbo to go for. In the end it would have probably been the 9180 and may still be in the future. Geoff Raicer was very specific in terms of header and X over sizes for our application. I still hope we can get one on there sometime in the future. For now we will stick with the GTX3582 but I'm going to upgrade to the 1.06 turbine housing. From what I can tell, you can go for a higher bhp rated EFR vs Garrett turbo and still maintain response. Especially if you can do the whole Twin Scroll setup. Good luck!

Oh, not sure if you've seen this one but a guy in the UK did an EFR conversion and documented it very nicely. Helped that he is a good fabricator too.
Think he's had to sell the car since then and don't believe he ever totally finished the project, but definitely worth logging in and checking the thread out.
If you can't read this, he did a thread on Rennlist too. http://forums.tipec.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=17459
__________________
Patrick

Youtube 333pg333

86 modified 951

Last edited by 333pg333; 01-10-2016 at 05:49 PM..
Old 01-10-2016, 05:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
i spent a longggg time on that thread haha

im not doing twin scroll because it wasnt an option sadly.

the customer service at Fab9 was good. but the broken nipple was sad. And now im waiting for a reply because i also paid for a v band flange kit and it didnt come with the shipment. so im still right in the middle. good service but not great service...
The response on the EFR will definitely be comparable to a size up in garrett terms from what ive seen.

we spent today at the shop and got very little done. a hitch in everything...
turbo is a tight fit, hits the motor mount. rather than get the aftermarket broadfoot mount, it appears if i get a GT to T Oil Flange Adapter, for 38 bucks, it will adapt the mount to the turbo, and measurements look like it still should fit under the intake mani.

the fuel rail went together fine, but cant install it until everything else is done. pulled the alternator - i got a junkyard Quest alty for $35, which i will need because the nipple on the boost control solenoid (the broken one) would hit the current alternator.

definitely not a cut and dry swap!
__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club
Old 01-10-2016, 07:05 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,508
Garage
Yes, you will probably have to mod or make a new turbo mount. Should be able to mount it a little lower. What intake are you going to run? Stock would probably still be ok with your intended use with it's focus on early to mid range response. Maybe run with that initially and then try something else. Not much available. Easy enough to get something made up though.
__________________
Patrick

Youtube 333pg333

86 modified 951
Old 01-11-2016, 04:30 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
I don't see any reason to change the intake manifold. I was running 408chp find, this isn't that much more.
im unsure about injectors. I guess ill leave it to my tuner to tell me what else I need.
the mount should be fine without modding, I ordered an adapter, and this turbo is shorter so it should all fit fine it looks like!
guess we shall see!
__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club
Old 01-11-2016, 04:53 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Autocross/Hillclimbs
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wilsonville OR
Posts: 842
Garage
compressor outlet is the same size as the 6262 so that's good. easy transition. the inlet is a different size, so ill need a reducer-coupler. still haven't determined how I will block off the existing BOV.
also, the current boost control solenoid(s) I haven't looked much into, but there are two, so 4 wires. Im not sure why...
but the one built onto the EFR only has 2. so I need to look into how that's going to work out.

long road ahead!
__________________
2x 1984 944 N/A; 1988 951S Silver Rose; 81 VW Rabbit Diesel; MK4 VW R32
President - Bridge City Autosports
http://www.bcautosports.club
Old 01-12-2016, 10:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
333pg333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 1,508
Garage
I've run 500whp with stock intake but we certainly improved with one we made. Not sure if you're running stock injs but I doubt they would be up to it. No harm in switching to bigger and an upgraded Fuel Pressure regulator. What fuel are you running? If E85 then definitely bigger both.

I've only checked out the larger EFRs and they're pretty big so it's good that you can fit this one without hassle.

Are you running an aftermarket ECU, chips, maf, map...??
__________________
Patrick

Youtube 333pg333

86 modified 951
Old 01-12-2016, 01:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:52 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2017 Pelican Parts LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.