Porsche noob here: Can someone explain why the 993 and 964 are so pricey?
 

Hello everyone,,
I just joined this sub as I've become very interested in Porsches recently. I'm mostly into American muscle cars so I don't know much about them. I was recently looking at the 964 and 993 because I thought they were the best looking 911s, and I was shocked by how expensive they were (especially the 993), most going for hundreds of thousands in USD, sometimes going for more money than a brand new 911

I get that they're Porsches...but I didn't think the 911 was a particularly rare car, considering they've made it consistently for decades. Normally I'd think cars from that year range wouldn't be so valuable because they aren't very old, so what's going on in the used 911 market????

"hundreds of thousands in USD" - that must be a really rare model w/ extremely low miles. I'm actually shocked how 993s don't seem to be doing well. 964s are insanely priced and nothing special 80s era Carreras are selling on BaT for 993 or more prices.

964s used to be $16K cars. Now they're $30-60K. Unless there's something unusual about the car (RS America, Cup Car, uber low miles, turbo, etc) they should not be 6-figure cars.

There not making anymore “air cooled” 911s, if you have not driven an 964/993, you need to get the unique feel of the last of the air cooled cars, analog in feel, no nannies and a flat 6 howl, nothing else compares. Not a drag racer, but a canyon carver. They have held their value of late if miles are not poured on each year. But post c19, who knows.

Drive one and you either know why or decide to move on. Life is short, enjoy the ride.

964's retained the classic 911 styling (except for the Shrek chin bumpers) and lend themselves to backdating ala Singer, which is one reason the price has gone up.

Funny how the 964 used to be a bit of an ugly duckling of the bunch until Singer started using them as donors

Meanwhile the 993 was always beautiful

Yes, the 964 was always the unloved stepchild...until these last 5-10 years. But I have to admit, when I park my 964 next to my 930, the 930 is so much better looking IMO. And it's that fat (phat) widebody shape that Singer mimics. Oddly I may be a blasphemer, but I have never been a big fan of the 993 styling (other than in cab and turbo forms, interestingly).

Each is admired by those who prefer a certain aesthetic, but the rear engine air cooled platform is a joy of mechanical balance. Go with what your wallet and heart tell you. Enjoy the ride and the journey.

Move to Australia, and then see how expensive they are. "drug money"!
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/porsche/911/964-series/?sort=Price

For OP, I believe the reason they are so popular is the combination of aesthetics (just a beautiful shape), usable / fun performance level, quirky-but-cool technology, and relative reliability.

That combo is way I bought one anyway.

a) I like the muscle car rumble (Dad had a 66 vette back in the day), e.g. the old vettes look great and sound good... but IMO they are not much fun to drive. Good for stoplight drags but less enjoyable to toss into corners
b) old Ferraris in sort of the same category as (a). Look brilliant and sound awesome but not all that fun to drive. That said if I buy another car will probably find an old Ferrari just for the noise
c) a new Porsche, or Corvette, or Mustang is fast but really *too* fast and too polished. Test drove several new 911s before opting for a 964 but they were basically boring at street speeds. 0-60 in 4 secs is briefly interesting but other than that it's like driving a nice-looking Accord...didn't feel special. I liked the Boxster though, interestingly, so maybe consider one of those too...cheap as chips now too

I bought my 100 000 miles fully serviced 964 for about 11000 dollars in the UK 12 years ago when they dissapeared from used car dealers completely, including Porsche, because " they were ugly with leaking engines".
I think time has carved out a special niche for the 964/993.
Aircooled but with features not found on 3,2 Carreras.
Great after market support.
Relativly low production number.
The Singer effect
The 996 now seems to be were the 964 was 12 years ago.

I like the 993's but prefer the more traditional look of the 964's headlight set up

I think Singer has snatched up a lot of what used to be "donor" 964's, driving the price of even the crappy coupe's/targa's up to ~$50kUSD.

I don't see this slowing either. Once you get your hands on a nice 964, it's about the last car you'd want to get rid of!

I think that's definitely been a problem here in SoCal. But Singer's not totally cold-hearted. A source at a local Porsche indy garage has told me they've found some new homes for 964s purchased by Singer, but then deemed to be too nice to cut up for Reimagination.

I’d only sell mine to get another one! It’s a lot of fun to drive and I really love the way it looks. The supply of decent stock examples is only declining with folks like Singer backdating.

As mentioned by prior posters the 964 and 993 both final years of air cooled engines but the
beginning of technologically advanced options like air bags , a/c that works even marginally,abs ,
AWD, ABD, brake and wheel sensors, advanced lighting , I could go on .
They also resemble the earlier cars and the classic 911 shape much more readily than the current
offerings from Porsche .
I believe mostly for the reasons buyers have placed great value in their scarcity and the fact they
have ceased to manufacture these models .
I was around when 964's were frowned upon even devalued and bought one or two myself
because they were dirt cheap and surprisingly was ahead of the curve .
I can pat myself on the back a lot but I liked the shape back then and still do haha never as
happy with a decision .
Now hard to find , expensive and very much in demand , oh how many rue the day they sold 'em !
Bert

Bert! That list of cars in your sig is pretty nuts. Would love to see some shots of your stable-start a thread or maybe your Instagram?? Seems like you have some pretty crazy stuff.

Rock on

Thanks for the props yes have been working on this stable for the last ten years or so with a few project distractions thrown in , the GT is getting a refresh this spring with
Euro bumpers , BBS , and euro lights may do EVO upgrades in the fall..
My 993 RS CS has had some teething problems engine wise but after getting a factory
Cup G50/30 trans to complete the Cup drivetrain we've just about determined the fault lay in a bad harness I bought from someone on the forum .
My 72 RS is just waiting for time to install the low mile 3.6 with RS cams I have sitting
in the shop, and the R is really a collection of parts waiting for me to have time to assemble ..
Believe me I want to post up some pics and will soon as I get three or four suitable for
public viewing ...haha oh it's coming ! Thanks B

Had a 993c4s 15 years ago and loved it never thought i would end up in a 964. But its true i would never sell it only to get another one lol

Good luck! I will stay tuned.

The 993's seemed to always be admired and so many have been lightly driven and remained in good condition. There seems to be a drop off in pricing of the basic NB 993 while the WB C2/C4S's are in high demand. I am not a fan of the 993 styling as much as the 964 although when i look at the WB 993's next to the NB version there is something that just speaks to me. The 964's were the first departure from the basic 911 long nose since they added the ugly bellows bumpers. They always looked like an afterthought to me. I was not a fan of the 964 bumpers initially but the old style bumpers had been around for nearly 15 years and was something you became used to. The bumpers were actually closer to the original lines of the long nose vs the bellows bumpers but that didn't matter and once the 993 came along people forgot about the 964's other than a cheap track toy and around 15 years ago were quite common to see at many DE's. The 964 was the last of hand assembled cars made during the downturn of the economy and were stupidly expensive new. A base C2 could run as much as $85k while the turbos were over $100k in a time when $30k bought you a fully loaded top of the line SUV which was all the craze in the early 90's. So few were made and Porsche nearly went bankrupt during this period. So many 964's were parted out for their engines which made great transplants into 914's or earlier hot rod 911's. Many were neglected bought up cheap and then ruined by shade tree mechanics or neglected never getting their proper care. By the time singer made these popular for their reimagined 911's which IMO are a waste of money there were so few remaining in good condition. The coupes were imported in small quantities. Only 5106 NB standard C2/C4 manual and tip coupes were imported to the US most of which were the earlier versions with the ringless engines. Nearly half of these were crashed, left to rot, parted out or who knows what was done to them leaving very few for sale. I have been following these for nearly 20 years and I would guess there are around 2000 in total remaining in the US and many are cars with past history and deferred maintenance so when one comes along with good bones they command a premium since they are so hard to come by. I would say the average $50k 964 C2 coupe would run you another $15-30k in repairs or fixing little needs so when a good one with low miles comes along they can easily fetch 6 figures. I have seen a few low mile, unique color cars reach above $150k while the RSA which is a C2 with some special bits can easily be in the 6 figures and the turbos 3.3L can fetch upwards of $175k for a nice example and $300k+ for a clean low mile 964 turbo 3.6. With less than 200 of the 3.6T's remaining in the US of the 335 imported it makes it one of the rarest air-cooled Porsche's and the last RWD single turbo cars made. The ultra rare ROW 1992 TSL has seen numbers as high as $2million for a delivery mile example and the 94 turbo S's can reach as much as $1.2mm with the average car seeing $750k. These were very special cars that nobody understood and now lust after. Like Bert I was into these decades ago and was glad I made the right choices at the time to buy when they were cheap.

Bought mine with just test and delivery miles on it, just off the showroom floor, summer of 1992. I've always loved this car regardless of depreciation, then abject refusal of it's existence when the 993 hit, and to now, as a coveted series to own.

When it is driven, we always marvel at how well it performs, garners attention from anyone that will take the time look at it and at my own admiration for the car once it is back in the garage.

In hindsight, should have purchased all the various offerings in the 964 platform.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1589994937.jpg

We should all have space for rugs and fancy chairs in the garage

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Don't forget the potted plants. Real, too. Not plastic.

Yep. Just adds to the maintenance requirements. Vacuum, dust, water......

Love my 993. Drive one to understand. 2wd manual is the way to go for me.





http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1595436277.jpg

Parked next to the last of the 356 series, you can see more family resemblance in the last of the air cooled 911. The more gradual headlamp shape now common on modern 911s is not so different than a 356 with the lens cover. Also the sloped and overall rounded body shape of the 993 doesn’t seem too different a concept when parked next to a 356.

If you ask a 993 owner which is better they will say their car. Same for 964 owners.

But that is not what you asked.

They are both fairly reliable and easy to work on cars that provide a driving experience superior to newer cars in the same price range. That light weight connected feel is so good. They have already hit the bottom of their depreciation curve once. They should be fairly stable. Although, as someone mentioned, the covid crisis may impact all things slightly.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1595436448.jpg

Looks like the OP got banned after one post! Is that some kind of record?

Wow! That is fast!

I must be the contrarian because although i'm definitely new to the porsche community, i'm not a fan of the 993 vs 964. Specifically the flatter front end of the 964 I just prefer so much more to the 993

Over the last +5 years I had built a very nice 81 SC Hotrod. A lot of the car was updated, and many of our fellow Pelicans were involved in parts, contributions etc.

And, many of the finest in the Porsche community played a part too. Engine by Al Kosmal, Suspension from Elephant and Eibach. Interior from Classic9 etc.

I recently sold that car and imported a 1992 964 from Japan (they are tough to find locally). The 964 in stock form is an amazing car. The steering, the brakes, the suspension (updated with new shocks, springs, and sways) is amazing.

And the stock 3.6 is a beautiful engine.

The 964 combines the classic look with a newer platform and, in my opinion, is a very special car.

I've replaced the stock Cup1s with a set of OEM BBS RS 257/258 (I managed to find a set) so it looks just a little bit different from a stock 964.

To me, and I don't plan to sell anytime soon, the 964 is worth the riduculousness that the market is doing to the pricing.

Chris

Wow, that looks fantastic! I'm normally not a huge fan of the 993 aesthetics (heck, it's taken me awhile--30 years?--to like the 964's). But those MY2002 thin spokes and lowering really make the car look great.

I going to say the 964 cabs are a buy right now. No reason a 87-89 Carrera is worth more. The 964 is more modern but retains all the air cooled charm.
The cabs are $10-$30k cheaper than a coupe. Only a matter of time before they catch up.

^^^^

Believe the above is true as well. Don’t own a 964 coupe and wondering if the desire for the coupe is for the looks or more for body stiffness if they are pounded at the track. Or, could it be to keep the rain out of the interior? My cab does not leak but then again too, it sees very little driving in the rain and will bet, the coupes see very little time in the rain as well.

Either way, great cars and we always enjoy our 964.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1597156198.jpg

I agreed with this till I saw more 993s in person; in pictures the nose looks droopy. In person it looks great.

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